I think he's a very solid fighter. He may have a problem with a guy like Lara, but outside of that I think he has his way against anyone around 154. People constantly talk about him being too young, but he has a ton of pro experience. There is a whole lot of talk about the quality of opposition, but hell to me that's being a bit nitpicky. He improves every fight. Kirkland is made to order for him, and then I think maybe we see a Mayweather fight, a fight in which I think would be extremely competitive at that point.:boxing:
I meant to vote for Calzaghe but pick Froch by accident.
Calzaghe wins head to head. But no doubt Froch has the better resume by a mile.
By a mile? Hell you would think that Froch just knocked out Sugar Ray Robinson. Froch deserves the utmost respect for fighting and being competitive with everybody. Tough dude for sure. He did however lose to Kessler, who Calzghe beat easily, and although he has some solid wins on his resume, none are as good as a win over B-Hop, even though Bernard was old.
I'll concede that overall his competition has been better, no doubt, but "by a mile"? Not so sure.
I'm a Roy fan and I don't really give a fucc. It's a part of boxing.
Roy was obviously past his prime when they fought and trying to justify otherwise is foolish. But it was his decision to keep fighting past his prime and pile up losses on his resume so he has to man up and deal with it.
Now this is what is called truth folks. Deal with it and move on.
Ali, Malignaggi, and AA have all fought with broken jaws. It sucks, but it doesn't jeopardize your career or completely limit your ability to win a fight.
Also, nobody's bringing it up but Ortiz has embarrassing technique. If he'd tuck his chin, his jaw would be fine and he'd be a much better fighter.
That was the definition of a war! Ortiz drops that right hand too much, that's why he was getting caught. I know people are talking like Ortiz is a quitter, but I was shocked that he was able to take some of those shots. Dude is tough. Anybody that thinks otherwise is crazy
Dropping the right is part of the problem, the bigger problem is his posture. He holds his chin up the air, which basically means hell can break loose if his opponent lands a counter punch. There's a short list of successful fighters who do that, the other being Juanma. It's a big issue.
I believe tucking your chin kind of goes out the window in a fight for a lot of boxers. You rarely see it practiced. I think Ortiz is fine until he gets hit, then he gets emotional and starts losing control. He had moments where he was more controlled and not reaching. When he stayed composed and moved in and out, he owned Lopez. He gets into these free swinging habits and thats when he drops his hands and gets caught. As far as keeping your chin down, I can only think of someone like Hopkins or Ward who kind of come in head first when in close with their hands up. Its a smart technical move although some find it to be a bit dirty. I think it does limit your chances of getting caught.
Wait so its cool to clown on Tito Trinidad who happened to be a shell of his former self just a few months prior in the same venue yet when he has it happen to him its wrong? I don't think Roy had a problem with it, just his heartbroken fans.
You know what's really messed up about the whole incident, was that at this point Calzaghe wasn't close to being at his best neither.
bear in mind also that this is the same pacman whom idiots say is one-dimensional, amateurish, come-forward, overrated boxer; he fought nothing but weight-drained, old, out of their prime fighters; jmm schooled him; floyd da best would stop him in the 8th round, you name it.
come fight night the same idiots expect him to fight in a superman-like manner and massacre his opponent. at the same time they expect nothing from the challenger. as long as he survives pac, it's okay. in this case, they didn't even have to focus on the young, undefeated bradley who is supposed to be one expected to shine and illuminate some signs that the future of boxing is bright.
:bigeyes:
I hear you! Any kind of objectivity at this point has been thrown out the window when it comes to judging Mayweather and Pacquiao fights. They both have been dominant against pretty damn good opposition. I think people are just looking for flaws in their game. I have to say a lot of the criticism should be projected towards the two fighters themselves for not fighting each other. They are both obviously the two best in or around their division and have not chosen to step in their against each other. Just a bunch of **** talkin bull**** from each camp for the past 3 years, makes me sick as a fan. Mainly because the sport has been held hostage for so long, because these brats can't hash out their differences at the negotiating table. So now we're left with threads on sites like this where fans of each of the fighter's tear down the performances of the two, when any objective person who watches the sport can see that that Mayweather and Pac have been nothing but dominant to very good in their past fights.
Now I am almost positive I will receive a collection of responses from Floyd fans saying something like " hey dog did you see what Marquez did in that last fight with Pacquiao, he was robbed. Subsequetly I am sure to see Pac fans conjure up a return response of... " bro Cotto pushed Floyd' s ass to the limit, Floyd is definitely slowing down dog."
I say shut up with all this nonsensical BS. God forbid Pac should have a close contested fight with a modern legend in Marquez. In fact every one that tries to put down Pacquiao for his performance against Marquez is indirectly being critical of Marquez. Same with Cotto. Cotto has been a beast for years in this game, someone who has exhibited a honor and toughness against some very good opposition over the years, I think he deserves major props for his effort against Floyd.
That being said it doesn't mean we have to **** on Floyd or Pac because they were in competitive fights against future Hall of Famers. I think we can all agree that its clear that they're both extremely good and their performances have proved that.
Yeah that's insane. Roy was dependent on athletic ability and reflexes which deteriorate with age. He was never the skilled technician along the lines of James Toney, Money May and Bernard Hopkins that allow you to be effective in your late 30's and into your 40's.
And having to lose all of that weight after the Ruiz fight made matters worse.
Soooo many people miss this about Roy. I always said if Roy would have developed a functional jab he would have saved himself from a lot of pain. As much as he has lost in terms of quickness over the years he probably still has more than most even today in his current division. That said if you don't use technique to set things up your asking for trouble. His lack of a good beard exhibited later on his career was also a cause for concern.
Apparently everybody has a lot of balls talking **** about the guy who just broke his jaw in a boxing match while they themselves were sitting on their on their ass watching from the comfort of their couch. Were you not entertained?
Why not. His speed was on point, so was his power and conditioning. Hell that was the best Pacquiao looked since the Cotto fight.
He made a mistake and was clipped, but it wasn't like he was taking a beating or getting outboxed.
I'm glad he isn't retiring and hopefully he can take on Rios/Bradley win that one and rematch Marquez.
What I think Manny will learn from this is that he doesn't need to revert back to his overly aggressive style as he is more skilled and he doesn't have to take the risk he did against Marquez (and earlier in his career) to put opponents away.
I couldn't agree more!
A pretty decent one still. Floyd will likely still be P4P, manny can move back to number 2 or 3 with wins over provodnikov and Bradley.
It will still be more relevant than when Lewis fought Tyson, and that was a blockbuster despite both being at the end.
Also looking at the modern greats, late 30s isn't such a bad thing- Marquez, Martinez, froch, klitschko are all at the top of their game despite there advancing age and haven't slipped too far off their peaks.
As long as these guys win their next couple of fights, it will still be the highest grossing fight ever. Too much hype for people to turn away at this point. I think you make a good point in the fact that these two guys will still be ranked at or near the top even next year at this time, so no logical reason to say that it won't sell.
If Mayweather gets Ortiz moving backward at any point the fight is over. I expect Mayweather to be coming forward by the 6h round.
Well, i think you said more about this fight in two sentences than most have said in three months of speculation. I think your spot on. The skills as well as the speed advantage favors Floyd and I like most believe he will eventually take over in the center of the ring and outboxes Victor. That being said, Victor has no choice but to force the issue and take it to Floyd. I 'm just interested to see if Floyd can counter Ortiz successfully enough to earn his respect forcing him to back up. Victor is as strong as a bull at 147, and much faster than people give him credit for. This isn't Hatton,Gatti, or Mosely were talking about. Styles make fights and I thing these two styles should make for an interesting night.
I disagree with some of the things you point on. Of course Manny won't be discourage, but the left hand would disrupt his rhythm and force him to get desperate in which would play into Floyd's hand to set up his straight right hand as a trap. I based my theories from what I've seen from the two bouts that Manny had against Mosley and Clottey, and those two guys never set up anything behind their jab like JMM did with his lead right hand.
I think your right about the possibility of using the left hand to keep Pacquiao off rhythm to set up the right hand. The first thing they teach you against the lefty is throw the straight right down the pipe. I just think the problem is he won't follow up with anything afterwards, because you know Pacquiao is coming with something. Marquez threw the left hook after landing the right and hurt him with it. I failed to see Mayweather do that against Ortiz and he had the chances to do so, and Pacquiao isn't gonna stand there to be hit like Ortiz. Then again that fight only went 4 rounds so maybe he might have opened up more later on. Anyway, good stuff man hopefully we get to see the actual fight instead of having to speculate for 3 years about. Have a good one man.
Granted Pac comes out of the Marquez fight looking like he has recently, I think he handles Floyd at this point. I would have never said that a couple of years ago, but you know what, I think there's a real reason Floyd fights more flat footed, the legs aren't quite where they used to be. I think people might be a little shocked by what Pac is able to accomplish in that fight.
Sure Floyd landed lead right hand leads at will on Ortiz, but honestly ask yourself this? Did you really expect him not to? I think if you study the fight in its entirety, I think you see Floyd was able to control the pace landed some good straight right hands but what I noticed was that he was extremely hesitant on doing anything after he landed that right hand. Dare I say either he is either too slow to do so anymore against someone with decent speed and power or a bit more concerned about getting caught by a lefty with power. My guess is the latter.
After that fight I believe that Floyd has no choice but to stand in the pocket and try to pick Pacquiao apart. To do that he has to throw in combinations, which I don't know if he will commit to doing. Just look at all the angles Pacquiao throws at somebody in a fight, its ridiculous. I think its his legs and hand speed that eventual overwhelm Floyd. He's in and out all day, nonstop movement, hard to beat a guy capable of doing that by backing up and throwing one punch all night. Although I do feel Floyd had the fight against Ortiz under control, it did seem to me at least that Ortiz's pressure was more of an issue than all the boxing pundits acknowledge. I think that has more to do with wanting to eventually see May-Pac than being totally honest in what they observed. :boxing:
Solution: Make him fight at long range, and he'll be off balance whenever he lunges in and out. You can neutralize speed by creating enough space for yourself so that you'd have time to react and beat your opponent to the punch/es first. Cotto tried to stepped in closer to fired off his shots first, but Manny had the upper hand to utilized his speed to his advantage in that exchanged because he didn't had to be off balance or out of position to aimed directly at his target.
Same thing with JMM, he neutralized Manny's movement and speed when he kept his distance from Manny and had enough time to analyzed his every moves, but whenever he decided to closed in to fired off his combos, Manny had the upper hand to displayed his faster hands speed and got his shots off first in those exchanges.
Good posts, hell yeah that's what I like to see, differing opinions and quality stuff being thrown around. I especially like the clips of the straight rights landing, definitely emphasizes your point.
I used to think exactly like you, and I'm not saying it can't still happen, Floyd has the skills to make it happen. I just tend to believe he won't commit enough, and at some point will be touched. Marquez was knocked down four times between both fights, the man is tough as hell, and is not shy about standing toe to toe, in fact I think that's what got him into trouble against Pac just as you stated. When he backed up and worked of his jab he was controlling the fight. That said, those fights were at 126 and 130. These guys are much bigger now, Pac is better and brought his speed up. I think this will be bad for Marquez, and I think Floyd won't use his left hand enough to discourage Pacquiao.
I can only assume sarcasm with the current results. If you don't choose Ali or Leonard from the list and your being completely honest, you should probably just quit posting altogether. The other cats are very good fighters but please...just stop it already.
I 'd like to clarify something about Bradley, if I am wrong feel free to inform me of anything I may be getting wrong. I think Bradley played his cards exactly right, credit to him. HBO likes to claim that the guy totally ducked Khan, which everybody representing HBO and Khan would have wanted everyone to believe. The thing was they offered both Bradley and Alexander a guaranteed fight on the network following their fight with each other awhile back in Pontiac,MI. Then all of the sudden they wanted him to take a fight with Khan and not ante up when he already had a been promised a date and big money to boot. I don't think the guy was wrong for doing what he did. He chose to wait until his previous promotional contract was up and signed with Arum. Now look where he's at. All this talk about ducking is bogus, he's a tough dude should be an entertaining fight.
dont let the nostalgia fool you..just because they fought in the 70s/80s doesnt make them more skilled..this isnt based off resume..just SKILL..how you can say one shouldnt find a Floyd Mayweather or RJJ more skilled than a SRL or Ali is ridiculous. imo Ali just wasnt as skilled as them..however great he may have been..
I think your quick to assume that I have referred to nostalgia for some reason. You say just because they fought in the 60's and 70's doesn't mean their more skilled. Maybe not, but they sure faced faced better opposition on the way up, NO? That includes both amateur and pro. Maybe I should have included the time period in which they fought amongst the criteria simply for that reason. Its no fault to the more recent gang of fighters that they don't have to fight as often or against the best opposition to get recognized or paid handsomely, that's the business of it.
Can you imagine no Ali v Frazier taking place because they couldn't agree on how to split the money? Or no Leonard v Hagler, or Leonard v Duran, or Leonard v Hearns? I mean it just gets to the point where its hard to ignore.
Anyhow I picked the guys in this order. Leonard, Ali, Floyd, Pernell, then Roy. I thought Leonard was by far the most complete fighter of them all. You cannot point to one thing that he doesn't possess as a fighter, and he fought legends and won. Ali, great athletic attributes, didn't do things technically right all the time but was able to overcome it. Later after he came back and lost some of the natural quickness he had previously he he was able to overcome some monsters(Foreman, Frazier, Lyle etc) with a toughness and a boxing I.Q. that was unbelievable. Floyd is very good. I think his best days were at lightweight where his skills were really on display, the guy was dominant. I just think his resume in recent years lacks in comparison to the others. Technically great. One of the best defensive fighters I have ever seen, an underrated toughness and discipline for the sport. Pernell was maybe the most elusive fighter, again a great amateur, hell all of them were. Lacked some power which made me put him here, fantastic boxer though, he and Floyd would have been interesting. I think you can virtually flip flop Pernell and Floyd depending on how you perceive each of their styles.
Roy comes in at the end. Great physical talent no doubt. Fun to watch that's for sure. His level of opposition wasn't the best, some of that was his fault some not. Not in the class of the other guys on the list in terms of technical prowess, then again I don't know if any of them were as gifted athletically as Roy. I always thought if Roy had a better jab he could have saved himself from those embarrassing moments at the end of his career. That said those moments happened and you can't erase them from memory, that's why he's last on my list.
As far as the Leonard v Floyd or Pernell goes i think Sugar Ray beats both of them. He beats Floyd maybe easier that Pernell because of the styles.
Good honest video and I don't doubt anything from Koncz. The guy even refused to slag off Floyd too.
He also confirmed that Manny had AGREED that Floyd deserves more income and brings more revenue to the bout. I'd be very interested to hear what the Pactards have to say about that.
After just watching the video I'm just wondering how you came to hear that Manny "agreed that Floyd should get more of the money"? Just sounded like he offered Floyd that the winner gets 55% of the ppv as opposed to 45% to the loser as well as 50 million up front to Floyd. NO?
Floyd Knows!
I feel like a total geek speculating on this **** one last time, but for the first time in a ling time I think we're getting some truth here.
I know it won't come as no surprise, but Floyd isn't the person he appears to be in the public eye. He created this character to sell tickets and PPV's period. Prior to the Dela Hoya fight Floyd had a difficult time selling out Grand Rapids.
The guy has been sly as hell in building up this persona. He is the guy who many people want to see lose, thus they tune in. Yeah most people admire his skill now, but prior to that the Oscar fight and his 24/7 debut no one cared at least not from the average fan's perspective.
Now what Konzc explaining was basically alluding to the fact that Floyd believes that he has a lot more to lose than Manny in this fight, so he feels he should get a bigger piece of the pie. I think if you ask the common fan of boxing who do you enjoy watching from a basic style perspective a large majority will say Manny. Manny has simply built a better reputation as an action fighter and Floyd is more than aware of this.
If Floyd loses this fight he loses that "0" on his record:boxing he falls back to the pack much faster than Manny would. I think generally speaking people are going to be quicker to ante up the cash to see a Manny fight even if he loses to Floyd. You won't see that if Floyd loses, and he is more than aware of that. The folks are tuning in to watch him lose and if he does Floyd knows his stronghold on the PPV audience will drop dramatically. Oh yeah I forgot to mention Bob Arum still sucks!
I still think Canelo smashes him and I still think canelo is alot of hype. Any slick boxer or accurate puncher is still gonna smash kirklands baby chin.
Couldn't agree more.
What people have to realize is, Floyd is nowhere as offensive as JMM. JMM took many chances in order to land the shots he landed on Pac. Is Floyd willing to take that chance? JMM sacrificed defense in order to get his offense off. Floyd will NEVER make that sacrifice! Yes Floyd is the best counter puncher in the game, but he will need to actually fight! He's not going to get away with throwing 1 right hand lead at a time. Pac will win rounds on workrate alone. Throwing 15-20punches a round is not gonna cut it. When JMM countered Pac, he countered him with 2-3-4 punch combos. When is the last time we've seen Floyd do that.
Now this is not to say that Floyd wont have success against Pac. All I'm saying is, dont use Pac's performance against JMM as a measuring stick against Floyd. Floyd and JMM although both very technical, are also very different!
Couldn't agree more! I personally think Floyd has slowed a bit. Its true that Mayweather is a counter puncher, but not when he is going backwards, he usually make you miss in the center of the ring then catches you. I think Floyd because of his size advantage has no choice but to take the lead in this fight, which can lead to some very dangerous situations but I think he would be fine. People talk about how Marquez would step back and counter Pac all night, therefore it would be easy for Mayweather to do the same. Marquez throws more combos than Floyd backing up period. When Floyd gets the pressure put on him he'll attempt to catch you usually with a straight right hand, but more often than not following that he goes into defensive mode, and does not comeback with a a hook off the right hand. Marquez like you said made the commitment to do so. I still think Floyd can catch him in the center of the ring and use his jab to control the distance of the fight, but anytime he is moving backwards its going to create problems for him. When your that much bigger than your opponent and you have speed to boot, you plant your lead foot in the center of the ring and make him commit to breaking through to get to you. Floyd has been doing that quite a bit lately and he needs to do it against Pac. All of the sudden after last week people think Floyd's style resembles Sugar Ray Leonard. Hilarious really.
I have to say Pacquiao. Simply for the fact that Merchant asks the question
"can he beat the count", just priceless. I was there sitting in the upper bowl and everyone knew it was over when that punch landed! The sound of it reverberated through the whole arena.
"Can he beat the count" ha ha!
Another victim. lol. this guy doesnt have a chance against Broner. No one does at 130-135. Broner is big,has reach,superb defense,power in both hands,a good jab,fast feet, and hes dedicated and loves to out box his opponants. Please stop hyping these bums up. This guy will be easier for Broner to ko than Eloy punk azz was, because he squares up and has a high guard. You guys make me laugh postiing utube vids of bums koing bums.LOL Please stop Lol
I have a mind to think this is actually Broner making this quote! I picked Broner based on his size and jab. I witnessed about as much of Broner as Uchiyama, and to be honest I think it could go either way. Broner was enormous compared to his last opponent, it looked ridiculous on T.V.. Uchiyama is an enormous step up for Broner in terms of ability.
Technically speaking its hard to apply the word "duck" in its truest sense to any of the top fighters today. Its simply because a lack of commision oversight and one legitimate set of rankings. That's why these guys go for the biggest purse, you can hardly blame them. B-Hop pulled out of the fight in 2002, that's true, but why wouldn't he? Then he wants to fight Calzaghe in a rematch later on? Simply because he knew it would pay more at that point than a Dawson fight would. It wasn't like Calzaghe was a household name in the states at that time in 2002. Same for Calzaghe fighting Jones later on instead of Pavlik, more money. Same things Pac and May do or anyone for that matter. These cats feel like they have proved themselves and they want to get paid.
Its pretty rare you see a legitimate fight with guys in their primes anymore, they basically have to have no where to go. Kahn has had that problem recently so he's forced into the tough fights for good money but not great money.A reasonably big name but not in demand in the states like Del la Hoya or Trinidad were. That's why Bradley backed out with a fight with Khan. HBO doesn't talk about how they guaranteed him a second fight on their network for a million if he agreed to fight Alexander which he did. HBO turns around ans says ok now your fighting Kahn , Bradley says no I'll fight someone else that your contractually obligated to pay me for and go to Top Rank. worked out for him didn't it? The "Duck" is a myth. :boxing:
As far as Calzaghe goes ,he wasn't a big name in the states, back in 2002. Hell he wasn't that big of a name after he housed Lacy. That said the likes of Jones and Hopkins all knew he had big time ability, and fighting a virtual unknown who happened to be damned good was not good business acumen.
When I say "unknown" I'm speaking of the casual fight fan in the U.S.
Dirk I hear what your saying on the issue of its kind of a "pussified" way of being smart, but the fighters didn't make it that way.
Take Bradley's case as a modern example. Yeah its true that saying he held out for Pacquiao would be best labled as hindsight. However I went to his fight at the Silverdome against Alexander and fans there knew that he was guaranteed a million dollar fight afterwards. Yeah everybody was pissed that he wasn't fighting Khan next, but they knew why. He said well I'll take the money you owe me and fight someone else and let that fight simmer for a bit and eventually make more. Ateast that's how I understood it. Anyone that says this or that fighter would have done it different is talking silly.
Now things just so happened to work out and he landed the fight with Pac,
Now here's where someone like Mayweather has it right. Cats in the media were saying Bradley is scared of Khan or Max Kellerman is saying he openly ducked Khan. I'm sorry but when someone in the media claims a fighter is ducking such and such, they are implying said fighter is scared which is BS. They don't even provide the backround negotiation info, they just throw around accusatory statements These dudes are "prizefighters" and they fight for prizes. They are looking for the best deal possible.
No one in the game is any better than the other. You don't get in the game if your "scared" that's all bs. It's all about the money. I don't think we"ll see better quality fights in the divisions until the big names like May/Pac are gone, because everyone is chasing that big payday.
A duck is choosing to take the path of least resistance when a harder one is presented.
In both cases, the two fighters took the path of least resistance to reach their goal. In the case of Hopkins, his goal was Oscar and he didnt want to risk that fight so he fought bums. In Bradley's case it was Pacquiao, he didn't want to risk losing to Khan so he fought Casamayor.
When its certain fighters, they get called ducks, but with the likes of these two, of course, its "smart business".
Propaganda at its finest.
I'm not saying I like it, but hell what would you do if you got punched in the face for a living? There is no oversight in the sport, which allows this type of stuff to perpetuate.
I'm taking a page out of Teddy Atlas' book and clamoring for a commission. I know its wishful thinking but this is the reason why the sport is hurting at least in the states.
No legitimate ranking system. Too many hands in the pot, from the sanctioning bodies on down. When the sport is as crooked as it is this is the type of stuff your going to get. I think everybody wants to see these guys in the best matchups as possible , especially in their primes. Clean up the sport and you will see the good fights when there supposed to happen. Until then I'll always side with a guy like Floyd over someone like Bob Arum. Plenty of the people in the business are slime balls man. Now that the boxers are working the game to their benefit we point the finger and say "ducker" at every chance?
Kirkland is fun to watch, but I think if he gets in there with a tough dude with decent skill he'll get popped. Molina seems to fit that mold. You can't train someone how to take a punch, unfortunately for Kirkland he is in the wrong division to have a questionable chin.:boxing:
would u be fine with pacquiao fightin chris john at 140? thats pretty much the same as hopkins pavlik.would u be fine with pacquiao fighting brandon rios at 147?
Let em know about it! Not to pile on, but his losses came against guys that he could no longer avoid,Taylor and Calzaghe. He couldn't argue that they wouldn't make him any money, and they were both unbeaten for the world to see standing right beside Hopkins in the division rankings. That said he did compete against both, hell I have more respect for him after agreeing to those fights, rather than some of his wins, such as Oscar or Pavlik.