Fighters who get knocked out that badly are always either made fun of or never allowed to forget it. That's the nature of the game, especially when the fighter in question is a guy who SO many people on this board pumped up as being "the next Tommy Hearns" for as long as they did Williams. People get sick of hype, and they respond to it negatively, that's life.
What was the point of this thread, exactly? To try to get people who made fun of him for being knocked out to feel like sh*t now that he's paralyzed? That's really silly, IMO.
As for Paul, I'm sure you can find some posts from me jabbing him over that KO as well, as I said, that's the nature of the game. However, I seriously doubt that anything any user here said about him in 2010 after the KO has any bearing on their sympathy for the man for his current situation.
This whole thread basically just seems like an excuse for TS and other Williams fans to play the role of "holier than thou".
Im not holier than thou, nor am i trying to make anyone feel like s**t. Some posters, like I said in my original post, started off their sympathies with "I hate Paul, but...". Thats the real argument. As far as everything you just supposedly analyzed about my post, Ill let you keep it..
No disrespect to P.Will. But seriously? You're crying about someone mocking him when he got KO'ed? Were we supposed to see the future and be like "oh sh1t he's gonna be in a bike wreck don't make fun of him"? You need some thicker skin my friend. As a Lara fan, I started disliking him even more after the robbery even tho he had nothing to do with it but that's not saying that I feel for what happened. Im not devastated by it but it's pretty sad to hear what happened. I ride a bike just like him so I guess you can say we're connected in that sort of way. You come on here and cry about some past things that were said about him it's stupid. I bet you those people including myself are not saying anything bad about the man right now.
To clarify, I think that making fun of someone who obviously was hurt at the time was uncalled for. Same for Jermain Taylor. And Ricky Hatton. There is a difference between enjoying a great KO and public belittling of someone who is hurt. Thats the difference. My posting this was in response to people stating "I hate Paul" before they offer their sympathies as well.. That part, Im assuming, got lost within the context of what all i posted.
"I'm not sure I completely agree with what you said. Yes, when there is a big kayo fighters get mocked but it's kind of a jab, or in good humor. I doubt anyone does it out of malice or hatred for a fighter. I think majority of us have so much respect for every fighter that lays it on the line and his safety. You wouldn't of seen that picture if Paul didn't recover from the knockdown. It's only after we see the safety of a fighter and his health, when you see those pictures(btw I've never once made one of these picture). Just saying.
With that said I was really upset this morning when I found out. I was busy enjoying the weekend, like a lot of us and was with friends and I was even talking about the next Canelo fight with them. Telling them that Canelos got a tough fight against Williams and telling them a little bit about PWilly.
When I finally got to reading the information I shed a tear, not because I loved the guy or anything but because I respect the guy. Sometimes we feel out of touch with fighters because their personality is this or that but Paul was a real dude. The guy was humble, nice, and respectful. No he may not of been that educated, most fighters aren't but he was smart enough to excel at something and give us entertaining fights, while being an upstanding person outside of it. I think we can all respect Paul Williams and it is very upsetting.
What's worse is the whole ordeal about being having paralysis. I look at it and myself personally would rather be dead. Once a proud fighter that made a living off his body, has now been retired to a bed for the rest of his life. It's unreal and saddening."
I think there was a difference between enjoying a KO, and being spiteful. as a P-Will fan I will admit that it was an amazing KO. But Some people actually enjoyed the fact that he was hurt. Thats where I think a line should be drawn. Some posters were respectful and knew that its part of the game.
Personally, I dont consider him "great"..
But I do think that he will be remembered for being the most awkward, stamina having, entertaining fighter that we've seen in a long time..
I will admit that if he had title defenses, and successfully defended them, he may very well have been in consideration as an "all timer".. You dont have to be superbly skilled to win fights, you just have to win. He was never really super skilled, but with the tools he had, he used them to the best of his abilities. Outside of the losses he's gained, alot of his fights were won in an exciting, flashy, ko.
Martinez is being accused of being overrated because.... he IS. How many of you at one point called Martinez the best 160lber in 10+years? How many of you actually said on those polls ive seen on here that Martinez could beat Hearns,could go toe to toe with B-Hop, could go toe to toe with Sugar Ray Leonard? I whole heartedly believe that a prime Jermaine Taylor would destroy Martinez. A Prime Pavlik would have too.. B-Hop?? murder.
Now after one less than stellar performance, peeps see him as overrated, stans want to cry. Pure bull****, he was overrated on this board after that 1st Williams fight. When he got that flash ko he was king ding a ling of 160. Some actually called him "sexy" and meant that ****...
People accuse P-Will of being overrated, but honestly, whats the difference btwn P-Will and Martinez? Martinez was winning that fight based off of pure activity (before the barker ko). Barker was blocking all of his punches and had a better punch landed percentage. As many of you guys that **** on Williams for the SAME EXACT THING, explain how Martinez's fight on saturday was different? If the fight went the distance, how could you say that Martinez was winning, if Barker's numbers were better?
Martinez will get the benefit of the doubt on this board because he has this Michael Jordan, demi-god status. No one can EVER criticize MJ because he is MJ. He can slap your mom, **** your wife and make your grandmother lick his ass and you'd accept it because of his perceived greatness. Martinez is the same.
Just because you win a fight, it doesnt mean your not overrated. I never saw Martinez as unstoppable. great matchmaking makes fighters look alot better than they are at times. Williams was a walking ko for a good punching/boxing southpaw. Pavlik was a drunk. Dzizruik had a cult following because he was undefeated and no one really could gauge how good he really was. If he's undefeated, he HAS to be good, right?
If Williams had better matchmaking, i could only imagine how much better off he'd be
Williams beats both IMO..
The question is who will Williams have a harder time with. Personally, Kirkland will give Williams waaaaay more trouble that Angulo because Kirkland is a wild puncher; he could catch Williams and end his night.
I dont think Williams' chin is shot at all. And as many shots that he has taken in his career (including the powershots from Martinez in their 1st fight), Im truly shocked that he hasnt gotten KO'd early in his career. IMO his chin is waaaay above average.
Angulo is really a Margo clone with better boxing ability and power. He doesnt have much footwork/movement and I dont think he could outclass Williams.
And Williams has plenty pop in his shots as well, his style just doesnt allow him to sit on punches all the time. If he really sits on it, and catches either one of those guys, dont be surprised to see Angulo or Kirkland out for the count.
Every boxer who loses is a hypejob.. P-Will is a hype job cause he got Ko'd. Berto is a hypejob because he lost.. Its getting ridiculous..
Id like to see what people say when Sergio Martinez, Floyd Mayweather and every other bandwagoner on this board dickride loses. I swear to God im gonna talk cash money, 100 percent pure **** on every thread. ANd I better see the same detractors say the SAME thing about those fighters as they do P-Will/Berto/Juanma/Cotto and every other fighter who lost a fight. Its BOXING... **** happens. I really dont think Berto is overrated, he just lost a lopsided fight. You expect every fighter to be undefeated?
Look at it from this angle: have you ever played one on one basketball and get sparked like a lit match? Would you consider yourself overrated because you lost? I doubt it. You ever play football and your team got clapped like a standing ovation? Straight steamrolled, the score was like 95-0 kind of asswhupping. I bet millions at least one of you on this board have. Its happened to ALL of us who have EVER played ANY sport. **** happens... sometimes you lose. Doesnt mean you suck, it just means you werent better than the the man/team in front of you that nite..
This whole "overrated/chin is shot/career is over" banter after one loss in a fight is getting mad old. Just give props to Ortiz for fighting a great fight. Praising one while ****ting on the other brings down the true essence of the sport, seriously..
Ask ya self that same question,would you consider Hoya at the time Mosley fought him a hype job??That's a dumb question(no offense)Look at their resumes and then get back to me..
Homie, youre missing my point..
Its not about resumes or who fought who.. Both Oscar and Sugar Shane were really, really good.
Look at it this way, resumes EXCLUDED, compare Ortiz and Sugar Shane, in terms of them moving up in weight and beating the champion in that higher weight division. Based off of YOUR logic, Berto was overrated because he lost to an unranked 147lb'er. So far, so good..
Now, Sugar Shane wasnt ranked at 147 AT ALL (he relinquished his lightweight titles to move up 17 lbs) but he moved up to 147 and BEAT De La Hoya.
Here is the parallelism between Mosely and Ortiz: Ortiz was/is ranked as TOP 10 140lb, who moved up in weight (to 147lbs) and beat the current champion (Berto). Sugar Shane was a top ranked 130lb fighter who moved up in weight and beat the then-current champion (Oscar)
Based off of your logic of Berto being overrated because he lost to an unranked 147lb'er, Oscar, in essence, (and once again based off of your logic) is overrated as well because he lost to an unranked 147lb Mosely.. There is NO difference between Ortiz and Mosley in terms of both fighters moving up in weight and beating the current champion..
In other words, If you dont consider De La Hoya overrated for losing to Sugar Shane, a former lightweight, then how can you consider Berto overrated for losing to Ortiz, a former light welter?
Why do people think I'm saying this because Berto lost??This is about who he has fought and what he demanded before his lost..Then to lose to a fighter not even rank at WW??It shows Berto for what he is a hype job..Not because he lost but he fought no high level opposition since the Collazo fight(how many yrs has that been??)so if ya wanna rewrite a better post responding to what this thread is really about I'll be happy to hear it..
Then to lose to a fighter not even rank at WW??It shows Berto for what he is a hype job..
This is why my post made sense, and honestly its the crust of your argument. Im not arguing your point, im just arguing the logic behind it. The fact that Berto lost to an "unranked fighter at 147lbs" is irrelevant. Ortiz is still a good fighter, top 10 in his former 140lb division (who has flaws, himself) who moved up in weight and got the best of Berto.
Sugar Shane moved up in weight to fight De La Hoya and he won. Im not comparing Ortiz to Mosely in talent, but in essense, he did the same thing; he moved up, fought a good opponent and won. Would you consider Oscar De La Hoya being a hype job because an unranked 140lb fighter moved up in weight and beat him?
Its kind of a toss-up
Mayweather's best fight at 147 was Zab Judah. He moved up to 154lbs to fight Baldomir, but miraculously skipped over Paul Williams, Antonio Margarito, Miguel Cotto (the fight that EVERYONE wanted), and a PRIME Sugar Shane Mosely.
Even that fight with Baldomir was bull****, if he REALLY wanted to make an impression he could have fought Winky Wright, Michele Piccirollo, Vernon Forrest (RIP), Fernando Vargas, ect at 154lbs.. He picked on the sorriest fighter at 154 just to get a belt. NO ONE on this board can convince me that Mayweather made more $$$ fighting Baldomir than he COULD have fighting Cotto. Nope. No way.
Manny's record at 147 against Hatton, De La Hoya, Cotto, Margarito and Clottey are a little better IMO. The competition at 147 hasnt really spectacular, and it hasnt really been popping since Williams, Cotto, Mayweather, Mosely, Margo, De La Hoya, ect..(Although some up and coming fighters like Ortiz are changing the landscape a bit)
I'll pick Manny, but it could honestly go either way.
Paul wanted an immediate rematch with Martinez, but the Martinez camp turned him down, so dont act like Williams wanted an "easy" fight right after Martinez..
Williams is the only fighter that cannot win on this board. He gets KO'd, yall **** on him. He tries to get an immediate rematch with the man that KO'd him, yall **** on him. He takes a tune-up fight, yall **** on him. At one point, the **** has got to stop.
Paul MAY just do what most on this board said he should do, build a NAME at 154lb. Its possible that his camp may go thru the ranks and win some straps, then possibly move up in weight, the right way.
And its not like PWill is a bum..HBO and PAul have put on some good matches on the past. One KO shouldnt make him drop off of the HBO roster SMH
Williams really gets hate for no reason..
If people feel that he is overrated, fine, you have your right to believe it. Personally, I never overrated him at all. Ive always said (and still believe) that he is a tall, lanky, medium powered, decent speed, incredible stamina having, easy to hit, million punch throwing boxer that would give most boxers he will face MASSIVE problems. There is no way to overrate that. A blind man could see thats true.
Was/IS he the most feared boxer? Maybe not, but in all honesty, its not like people were lining up to fight him either. He moved up in weight to fight the 160lb champ and Pavlik backed out like 4 damn times (even though he was medically cleared to fight). He gives Sergio Martinez the fight of his entire LIFE. He was willing to move up to 168lbs (which would be murder for him) if need be. Never have i seen a fighter who NEEDLESSLY gets as much hate as Williams.
Martinez is a good fighter, but after his KO win of Williams, people were comparing him to ****ing B-HOP!! B-HOP. I couldn't believe how people were saying Williams was over-hyped, but Martinez (after one KO win) was BETTER than B-HOP at 160lbs. I remember polls various peeps put up where they compared Martinez (in terms of greatness/ability and who he could beat) vs. Gerald McClellan, Roberto Duran, Tommy Hearns and, above all, Marvelous Marvin Hagler. I couldn't believe that ****.
If/When Martinez gets clapped, I sincerely hope her receives the same hate as Williams did. I will post pictures of Martinez face-down ass up on the canvas and make jokes. Ill say that he is still sleeping 10 months later. Ill post "Martinez needs to retire" posts all over the damn board. I wont call him "sexy" tho.. Thats mad suspect for a man to call another man "sexy" and mean it. If you get mad at what i said, too bad; its the truth.
I digress, Williams comes to fight. Hopefully, he can get back on track
Williams wrecks Chavez..
Williams is too long, and throws too many punches for Chavez to get thru. He took alot of leather from Zbik, I can only imagine what Williams would do
I think Cotto's best bet is to go to the body early... Honestly, I dont think too many people can go toe to toe with Williams' stamina and Cotto IMO is among that group.
The WORST mistake Cotto could make is to try and headhunt Williams. Sure, Williams is hittable, but I dont think Cotto really wants to get in a punch for punch war. Williams is kinda crazy, he went punch for punch with Martinez (who i think is good, not exceptionally great) in that first fight and walked thru some straight ROCKETS to the chin and gave as good as he got. I dont think Cotto has the same power as Martinez. Williams never stops throwing, he is busy, and has shown (in spurts) some pretty good head movement, ability to box and some power when he really sits on his punches. Although Williams doesnt have the Pacman type of power, he has enough, coupled with 100+ punches a round, to really give Cotto problems IMO.
Personally, I see Williams winning a decision. But it could go either way.
Ive been a Williams fan for a while, and I can honestly say that he isnt a 147lb fighter naturally. If I had to pick a natural class for him, 154lbs would be it. But 147lbs isnt that far down, and i think he could make that easily.
People throw the word exposed around way too much. I didnt think Williams got exposed by Quintana and i didnt think he got exposed by Martinez. To be exposed, Williams would have to NEVER been as easily hittable is he was/is today. He was super-hittable when he was smashing opponents (Sharmba Mitchell, Walter Mathysse, Verno Phillips come to mind). Thats the first thing i honestly noticed about Williams when I started following him. So to say he's been "exposed" doesnt really hold alot of weight, because he's always been getting hit since his career started.
As far as weight is concerned, I really dont look at the weight he has to make, I look at what he hydrates to. Some peeps on this board feel like he should move up to 168-175lbs ( and a few dumbasses REALLY think he should be a heavyweight). But if you've ever paid attention to what some of those guys hydrate to, you would quickly notice that alot of them come in as damn near cruiserweights (Glenn Johnson came in at 190lbs against Tavoris Cloud, who weight 187 himself. Chad Dawson weight in at 186 on fight night against Jean Paschal, who was 185lbs in their fight). Pavlik was 178 against Martinez. Jermain Taylor routinely weight around 170 in his middleweight fights. Williams barely cracked 168lbs when he fought Martinez the second time, and that was a first for him. Williams would get murdered at those higher weights. Not necessarily from a skill standpoint, but from a strength standpoint. He just doesnt have the "pop" in his fists to keep guys off of him. I think he could compete from a heart standpoint tho, most definitely. Not too many fighters have more heart that P-Will. He would give whoever he fought at those weights a fight, for however long it lasted.
And why is it that Ali Funeka's 6'1 ass gets no flack for being a lightweight? Celestino Caballero isnt short by any means. I recently saw a guy , Jose Teron, and he is damn tall to be in the division he is in. If some of you guy's logic applied to Funeka, he would be a middleweight as well. At one point, people have to get over Paul being 6'2+ and realize that he is rail thin. 154-160lbs is about right for him, 168 is a reaaaaaaal stretch
I agree that Martinez is being beyond overrated on this board. Some people on here said that Martinez could beat a PRIME B-Hop. So in that aspect, yeah, peeps treat Martinez like king-ding-a-ling of 160 lbs.. One ko victory and peeps think he can beat one of the best 160lb fighters ever, easily smh..
With that being said, he cracked Pavlik in the later rounds, but Pavlik IMO didnt fight bad. His jab was really effective in the rounds he won and he cut the ring off really well against Martinez in various rounds, and Sergio wasnt looking too "sexy" with that eye getting tapped with Pavlik's jab. Id like to see what a healthy, focused Pavlik would have done.. I still think Pavlik would have had trouble with Martinez either way tho..
I take that with a grain of salt..
But if a tune-up figh tis to be made (and there is nothing wrong with a TRUE tune up) then Id much rather see Floyd fight Saul Alvarez; or at least someone that is a live wire and could make spending $65 on a ppv scrap justifiable. No way in hell should Mayweather-Spadafora happen, let alone be on PPV... PEople would boycott the hell out of Floyd for that move.
Martinez is a good fighter, but I do see your point..
Honestly, Martinez gets hit ALOT. Not all of the punches are flush, some do more damage than others, but I noticed in both the Pavlik fight and the first Williams fight that Martinez can be touched. His offense (kinda like Paul Williams) is his defense. Martinez ball-lickers dont wanna admit that, but Kelly Pavlik touched Martinez more than I thought he would.
i do, have been doing it for about a year now just to keep in shape and learn techniques. Its really fun, but very tedious and hard work. I have somewhat of a stressful job (computers) so having an outlet where I can let off some steam and stay in shape is great.
Max Kellerman also compared Paul Williams to Hearns, Whitaker and Chavez.
LOL I remember that! I think it was the Verno Phillips fight when he said that..
hbo turned down martinez/zbik i think, but headlined chavez/zbik for the title...hbo is messed up from time to time. this barker fight is a done deal (signed), martinez's camp has been talking about it already in different interviews....i really wish it wasn't though cause geale is having trouble with his upcoming fight, that would've been great. martinez/geale for the IBF & WBC Diamond belts. martinez needs to really go after those belts next year, time isn't on his side.
I swear I dont understand HBO.. And believe me, this wasnt a rant against Martinez in any way. I just think fair is fair. We fans want the best fights, but Martinez will MURDER this dude, the same way Williams would have MURDERED Ishida. I dont follow their logic of cancelling P-Will but green-lighting this fight.. Mindboggling..
Now, Id like to see Martinez-Geale. I think Martinez can clean out 160lbs division (titleholder-wise). Ironically, the best fight available for him really may be Williams III; P-Will seems like the only guy willing to get in the ring and get it on with him...
This is a bull**** fight if ive ever seen one, and HBO is full of **** for showing it...
Amazing how they turn down Williams-Ishida for not being "challenging" but turn around and put on this garbage ass Martinez-Barker fight. If this happens, Paul Williams should never again catch **** for trying to get that Ishida fight. Unacceptable.
Actually, I dont give Martinez props for creating the blueprint to beating Williams (and Im not discrediting him because im not a fan of his). I really believe the props belongs to Quintana IMO.. He was the first to show how to really beat Williams..
I DO agree that a new trainer is necessary. The messed up thing is that Williams is too damn loyal. Peterson is the worst trainer in history. He got Williams to a championship high-point, and I give him credit for that. But Williams has worked on NOTHING since the KO.
Ironically, I dont think Williams is shot AT ALL lol. A new trainer would FORCE Paul to actually work on defense. Emmanual Stewart took Chad Dawson and completely changed his style, and I LIKE it. Just IMAGINE what he could do for Williams. I counted a total of 39 times where Williams bends/leans down to throw a body shot and leave himself wide open. Terrible!
All Williams needs to do honestly is to keep his hands up. When you throw the left, keep the right up. If you throw the right, keep the left up. Stand TALL. I swear i dont blame Williams, its his damn trainer I blame...
I played bball both in high school and college and I never ONCE gave another team props for handing a loss to us. Any loss that happened, happened because we didnt play right, not the other teams talent or will. I dont know too many ballers/fighters ect. that would openly give props like that; most internalize a loss and blame themselves, not the other.
In P-Will's case (as big of a fan as i am of his) i had it 7-5 for Lara. The fact that he said he won the fight is refreshing, f**k it. Humbleness happens once a fighter retires. To hell with being humble and saying another man won. That's the attitude he needs right now. Everyone knows he wants a Martinez scrap. Admitting he lost wont help his case of getting one last go-round with Sergio.
And, sometimes, HBO exaggerates the s**t out of some fighter's performances. If you listen to the commentators, you would think Lara won all 12 rounds.. Williams didnt get destroyed, just outboxed. Lara's left hand was the telling tale of the night, but the clash of heads is what caused all the blood from Williams. If you take away the left hand from Lara, things would have looked different..
Ive never blamed WIlliams for his flaws, its his trainer that always f****d him over. I still think Paul can put in some work, he just needs a new trainer to do it. If he doesnt change trainers, then yea retirement is best IMO...
Well, the Quintana loss was his first, solid loss. Ill give him that.
The 1st Martinez fight, I actually had Williams winning, so I dont count that one.
The Cintron fight, I had Williams "up" (although it was only 3 rounds in) 2-1. I will NEVER give P-Will a loss for Kermit doing a stop/drop and roll fire drill technique out of the ring, **** Cintron. If Cintron were up 8-0 and did that **** I still wouldnt give him the win..
As a HUGE P-Will fan, I had Lara winning the fight 7-5 (rounds, that is).. That was his 3rd legit loss IMO
Never really liked him, from his goofy arrogant attitude, to his excessive use of "nam sayin'" and his style for his height was always dumb to me.
He made it this far on his workrate, now he's got nothin to rely on
Paul Williams arrogant? I don't see that one... I've met him 5 times (I live in the same city where he is from) and he is the most humble, coolest guy you'd ever meet..
Anyway, I thought and still think that Paul will give everyone at 154 and 160 lbs real trouble. A KO loss really isn't a big deal as people make it out to be; if anything, a little caution will serve Paul well. His workrate is the best in boxing, along with his stamina. He is far from shot and I think he can make alot of moves and win belts before he decides to hang 'em up..
And really, too many people hyped him to be Tommy Hearns because he is tall. I'll never forget the first fight I saw him in. His height was amazing, reach incredible, speed/movement pretty good. Then I saw him eat a left hook out of no-where and I knew that his chin was his real defense.
He is no Hearns. Its easy to try and pattern Williams after Hearns because of height. I dont use height, I study hydration weights. Ive heard a rule of thumb that your hydrate weight is your walkaround weight. If that's true, Paul Williams is about 165 lbs, on average, walking. Essentially he is a Middleweight, albeit a little on the light side. Paul will likely not go to 168lbs and he sure as **** will NEVER go to 175lbs+, those guys routinely hydrate to Light-Cruiserweights (190 lbs).
Paul will more than likely stay between 154-160 lbs and win a couple titles on the way. Barring something catastrophic, I believe he will have a pretty good career from here on out. He's not the most technical, but on a given day, he'd tax most fighters.
Canelo beat two tomato cans on HBO; no way could he step up to Williams and possibly "destroy" him. No offense, but Martinez, Williams and Angulo would clap Canelo like a standing ovation. Yea Williams got caught in the last fight, but Canelo is no Martinez. I see Williams taking it to Canelo early and often IMO