Steel_Town_USA

There are so many fighters who would have won fights they otherwise lost if they understood that you aren't going to get amateur fight decisions in Vegas. Thats why conditioning plays such a vital role in those decisions, they give it to the guy who closes the show. I'd say Marquez "closed the show" in the last fight with Manny. He absolutely dogged Pac-Man in the last round; I don't see how you can question JMM's conditioning.

Come on man. My guy hits himself in the face, does a 180 and tries to pull the refs trousers down! How's it get better than that! Although LMFAO at him still punching on the floor :lol1:! Yeah, they were both pretty f'n hilarious. I was just being facetious. Good shit.

RkiCard are you fuckin kiddin me???? The hopkins that showed up against Joe was older and slower and less powerful than the one Taylor beat... Pavlik beat Taylor 2 times.. what the hell hahahahaha. Exactly. Karma sent. Everyone is touting Calzaghe's win over B-Hop as some career defining moment, yet Taylor's TWO victories over a 3-years-younger version of the same man don't qualify as "elite"? Bottom line is that Pavlik twice beat a guy who is better than anyone on Joe's resume, Kessler included. And one other thing: Kelly has all the intangibles -- the way he sees and catches punches with his gloves; the way he never, ever telegraphs his own shots; the precise, hammer-like doubling and tripling of the jab; the sum of his parts is truly greater than the whole. Pavlik vs. Calzaghe is a pick 'em fight.

Start watching from around 30 secs in No way, man -- this one is MUCH better :boxing:

He's had ONE fucking fight away from SMW and he planned ONE more fucking fight before he calls it a day. It's a bit late in the day to start citing weight issues as a reason for this fight not to take place. I'm sure Calzaghe could hit 168 one more time, or like I said, a catchweight. Have you watched the video? It is JOE who brings up Kelly, and now suddenly he doesn't want any part of it. The point is that a suitable compromise could be reached seeing as Joe envisioned the fight too. It's not a case of Pavlik chasing someone who never wanted to ever do with him. Joe was looking into it too. I'm sure Joe could fight at, say, 170. I'm sorry but if you think weight is the only, or main, reason isn't taking place, then you're clueless. Joe's going for the easy fight and the easy money. If we're so utterly stupid thinking this fight could take place despite the weight difference, then what the fuck is Joe Calzaghe, seeing as it is HE who is discussing an contemplating the fight? And it's not from years ago, it's a video from before his last fight. Open your fucking eyes. Joe HIMSELF brings up Pavlik. Wasn't weight an issue then? Fuck sake. Thank you. It needed to be said, and you beat me to it.

I just think that there has been a bit of a gap between the perception of how good Taylot and Miranda are and how good they actually are, and that that gap has flattered Pavlik a little. He is good, and I hope he gets better, I just don't think he's really the P4P guy that some make out. Miranda I'll give you, although he frickin' BEAT Abraham in their first fight, no matter what the judges said. (Everyone seems to be suffering from memory loss concerning that first bout.) Taylor twice bested Hopkins (who was 3 years younger and much better than the version Calzaghe squeaked by) and fought to a draw against Winky, another top P4P guy. It boggles my mind that you are so dismissive of Kelly's two wins over him. Also, for everyone saying that Jermain Taylor hurt Kelly....yes, he did, but Pavlik had dropped his gloves and began to do some uncharacteristic showboating when he got caught. He will not make that mistake again, and I see very few (if any) guys being able to hurt him otherwise. Just ask Nate Campbell what can happen when you get a little too cocky for your own good (Robbie Peden, anyone?).

I can see this bullshit starting already, it's all over NSB. It looks like the yanks have learnt their harsh lessons from the Lacy fight, and are now instead trying to discredit their fighter BEFORE he gets schooled. As recent as a few days ago, the general consensus was that Calzaghe didn't want nothing to do with Kelly because he battered Lockett (who is a LMW, by the way :kiss:) Now the general consensus is that Kelly is too small? Does it really hurt that much to give any credit to a fighter who isn't American? Because it's sure beginning to look like... I, for one, am not trying to downplay the meaning of a Calzaghe win over Pavlik. If Joe can pull it off, he'll probably go down as the third-best fighter of this era, trailing only Mayweather and RJJ. That said, Pavlik is heads and shoulders above Lacy, and more formidable than Kessler. IMO it's too close to call. Kudos to both of these guys for stepping up to the plate and making a supremely meaningful fight that all true boxing fans are dying to see.

The opening poster makes some good points. I'd say Pavlik and Kessler are probably around equal when it comes to accomplishments. Whilst US fight fans might call into question the abilities of Kessler's opponents, it's worth making the point that neither Miranda nor Jermain Taylor seem to attract the kind of fervent following which suggests they are "Elite" tier. Everyone is touting Calzaghe's win over B-Hop as some career defining moment, yet Taylor's TWO victories over a 3-years-younger version of the same man don't qualify as "elite"? What about the draw with Winky Wright, another top P4Per? Who exactly has Kessler beaten of that quality? At the very least Kessler hits as hard as Kelly, but with greater technique. Absolutely not. Kessler's KO rate: 72.5%. Pavlik's: 88.3%. The Ring Magazine rated Kelly as the third-hardest puncher in the game behind Wlad & Manny; Kessler wasn't even in the top 20. And look, I realize Andrade has a granite-like chin, but I saw him get knocked down by Yusaf Mack; Kessler hit him with everything in the book and he didn't even flinch. And Kelly has all the intangibles -- the way he sees and catches punches with his gloves; the way he never, ever telegraphs his own shots; the precise, hammer-like doubling of the jab; the sum of his parts is truly greater than the whole. Finally, I get the feeling that Kelly could hit Kessler's coconut all night long and not put him down. Who is willing to claim the opposite? What gives you this feeling? Kelly hits like a mack truck, and Kessler's never been tested like that before. Pavlik by late KO. Furthermore, I think that Kelly gives Joe C. all he can handle, and maybe more. It boggles my mind that so many people think Calzaghe would destroy Kelly. I'm a fan of both fighters, and I see this as a toss-up.

Buster Douglass was never a one-punch KO threat. He beat Tyson because he busted him up over 10(?) rounds. McCall and Rahman landed single crushing blows that KO'd Lennox. *I actually can't remember the McCall fight, so it may not have been just one shot, but it was close.* McCall had a lower KO % than Douglas. But even still, how does "one crushing shot" make it any better? It's still a loss, and a devastating one at that. Tyson would have had more than a puncher's chance to land that type of blow against Lewis. Would he have done it? We'll never know! And once again, Tyson was horribly undertrained and out of shape for the Douglas fight. He had no business stepping in the ring in that condition, let alone against a guy who was supremely focused and hungry to capitalize on his one-and-only shot.

Oh shit yeah! Those two fighters that Lennox came back and knocked out!!! And just so you know I'm more of a Tyson fan than a Lewis fan. I Just believe Lewis was better. You don't think that if Mike Tyson came back and trained AT ALL for Buster Douglas, he wouldn't have knocked him out? I'm not disputing that prime Lewis MIGHT have beaten prime Tyson, but to use the Buster Douglas argument, when a strung-out Iron Mike basically didn't train at all, is just dumb. It's the same thing as throwing out Rahman and McCall.

Personally I think Pavlik's wins over Taylor are bigger accomplishments then anything Kessler has done. Totally agree. Kessler is a good fighter, but he's no Kelly Pavlik, that's for sure.

How do you know he didn't train? Just because he says he didnt? Do you not think he used that as an excuse because he lost for the first time in his career. I do believe that a fully focused/trained Mike would beat Douglas and would obviously have a good chance against Lewis but I still think Lewis would win. Watch the HBO special "Legendary Nights: Tyson vs. Douglas" and you'll see that Mike was far more concerned with touring the world, partying and reveling in his celebrity status than he was with preparing for Buster. To a man, everyone involved with Mike confirms his utter lack of training for the fight. Anyway, this whole thing is completely subjective, since we'll never truly know who would've won. Like I said, I give Tyson much more than a puncher's chance, but Lennox was a beast and I wouldn't be overly surprised if he came out on top.

Not a chance. A prime Mike Tyson lost to BUSTER DOUGLAS!! Somebody who is not even close to being in the league of Lennox Lewis. No way mike could beat him. Yeah, I agree, because Lennox Lewis never lost to any lesser opponents...oh, wait....nevermind :ugh: Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman, step on up!!

I am also surprised why Americans don't run the HW division since 95% of them are over 250 pounds, that's like 280 million heavyweights and NOT 1 champion, a disgrace if you ask me... You can try to discredit the "other sports" argument all you want, but the truth is it's "spot on" (isn't that what you guys say on the other side of the pond?). It's a sad fact that boxing in the U.S. is taking on a niche roll, with football and basketball attracting our biggest and best athletes. I'm certainly not happy about it, but it's the truth. I am confident that a number of NFL players could have been world-class fighters if they'd gone down that path. But whereas the world heavyweight champion during the Louis, Ali, etc. eras was revered as an icon here in America, it's simply not the case anymore. They can find much more glory and money in other sports (without risking long-term health), and so they do....

Oh please people - you don't actualy think for one second that Bob Arum is afraid to put Pavlik in the ring with someone who can't hurt him do you? I don't want to hear about the $$ thing either, two Undefeated fighters like Pavlik and Calzaghe will sell more tickets than Roy Jones will these days, and I know that because I worked the Jones vs Tarver fight, AND the Jones vs Johnson fight and saw for myself that Jones doesn't have the drawing power that he used to have. The TRUTH is Calzaghe just wants a "W" so he needs to fight his fellow "over the hill gang" -- he is over the hill himself !! Pavlik would throw Joe a beating, and if you know anything about boxing, you know Pavlik beats Calzaghe to a pulp, Joe could barely handle an old Hopkins, where was all the footwork and all the boxing skills you nuthuggers talk about? The answer is - he doesn't have it anymore, he has no pop left in the gun. People who call Joe "40Cal" don't know a "22Cal" when they hear it, because Joe's punches are more like a "BB" gun compared to Pavliks' punches, if anything it is Pavlik that would bring a 44Magnum to the fight.... Amen, brother.

Pavlik will be beat by Bhop so this fight will be meaningless. I just don't see it. I mean, if Taylor was able to get past a 40 year old Hopkins twice, what makes you think Pavlik can't beat him three years later? Kelly is just way too busy for B-Hop at this point in his career.

The 2nd fight. Abraham beat the cunt with a broken fuckin jaw. Aura of invincibility my arse! Abraham was never approached for Pavliks next fight. Williams, Winky and Hopkins were. Arthur was willing to put aside his trinket belt to fight Miranda the second time, why would he care about keeping it if he has the chance to beat the linear champ and make a truck load more cash??? Sometimes fights need to simmer a bit before they're actually made. Makes them much bigger attractions. Such is the case here. Believe me, this bout will happen, and I don't mean 5 years down the line. I'm talking like next year. That's the difference between this situation and the one surrounding Calzaghe. Besides, it's not as if Pavlik is fighting a cream puff in the interim. In fact, if you ask many Calzaghe fans, B-Hop is a prime legend who was just unlucky enough to run into the greatest fighter of all time -- Super Joe! As for Sturm? I actually would have no problem with Kelly bypassing a fight with him. That boy ain't on Kelly's level.

Think about it; if Taylor somehow screws up and loses to Lacy, the strength of Calzaghe's resume skyrockets while Pavlik's resume drops like a rock. The weakest "big name" on Joe's resume right now is Jeff Lacy, because he's done squat since their fight, forcing Calzaghe's fans to use the "Joe ruined Jeff" anthem ad nauseum. Meanwhile, Pavlik's biggest wins are obviously those over Taylor. His KO over Taylor gave rise to more hype than the Chinese government has given to the Beijing Olympics. Without that brutal knockout over "the man who beat the man" on his resume, Kelly is not the rising star he is today. So if Lacy wins, it will allow Calzaghe fans to stop using the "Joe ruined Jeff Lacy" routine and elevate him to the level of... guess who... Kelly Pavlik! Yes, Pavlik would get compared to Jeff "Half Beard" Lacy, with both of them having Jermain Taylor as the biggest name on their kill list. Considering how Lacy was dominated by Calzaghe, this is not a comparison that Pavlik wants in his life. Just something to think about... Pavlik fans will unite behind Taylor, while Calzaghe fans will unite behind Lacy... until Joe and Kelly meet in the ring, if ever, this fight will instead serve as the measuring stick for future annoying-as-fuck arguments on this forum. Be prepared, people. Be very prepared. All true, but nothing to worry about. Bad Intentions will murder that ass. JT's career is far from over. On the other side of the coin, even if JT were to somehow lose to Lacy (ain't happening though), a Pavlik KO over Hopkins -- or a more decisive win than Joe's -- would balance things out.

Pavlik = Slow, limited skill, predictable, comes straight ahead. Yeah, I definitely believe your assessment of Pavlik's skill over Emmanuel Steward's. When Manny said after Taylor I that he was "completely shocked by Pavlik's skill level," it was either a lie or he's completely delusional. What's even more ridiculous is that he's continued to rave about Kelly's rapidly improving skills with every fight. Who does this Steward guy think he is? Pavlik doesn't throw very straight, and his shots are all telegraphed horribly. His jab is nothing to write home about; he never doubles it effectively. And his work rate and power? Pah, they're way overrated too, just like his ability (or lack thereof) to cut off the ring. Seriously though, you are always tearing Pavlik down for one reason: he's the main threat to your beloved Joe. At least I give Calzaghe his props and admit that he'd be favored to beat Kelly. But if you don't see that Pav is a real threat to your boy, then you haven't watched much boxing (oh, that's right, you haven't....only about a year and a half, right? HAHAHAHAHA)

So you're angry with me because I don't rate Pavlik, and are appealing to what Manny Steward says because you think that proves you right. Cool. I see Pavlik as being good at what he does, he has good workrate, a nice jab - right hand combo, good power and is young, so he will improve. I do think that he is quite slow and predictable though and that what he does is limited. I am yet to see any evidence of him being particularly skilful outside of the simple style he has shown in every fight so far. Sorry, I go off what I see in the ring. You know what I see in the ring? I see a guy whose shots are so straight and get from point A to point B so quickly that it completely offsets any (perceived) lack of hand speed. I see a guy who never telegraphs his punches and doesn't load up on any one shot, making it difficult for opponents to see those shots before they land. I see a guy whose accuracy is vastly underrated. I see a guy who knows how to cut off the ring and, unlike a fighter such as Margarito (who just comes straight forward), is supremely effective in stalking his opponent. I see a guy who stood in against against Jermain Taylor (who had proven himself at the elite level, unlike Kessler) and, despite being perceived as inferior in almost every quantifiable measurement, still won decisively. So, basically, I'm saying that Pavlik is much more than just a thudding puncher (although he most certainly is that). He has all the intangibles and very subtle skills that could pose problems for anyone. Am I saying he definitely beats Calzaghe? No, of course not. But I AM saying that he has far better than a puncher's chance of doing so.

So, here's a question....if, when Jones and Calzaghe meet in the ring, Calzaghe administers a Kessler style clinic, or even worse, a Lacy type beatdown, what's going to be the general concensus at that point? Right now, a significant portion of this forum membership believes that Jones is not shot, that he's only a little past his prime, and that he'll handle Calzaghe with relative ease. And a largeish portion of those seem to think Jones will win by KO/TKO against someone who's caught some rockin' shots and never been seriously hurt. So I ask...what then? Is it going to suddenly be a case where Jones turned grandpa overnight and was, after all, utterly shot? Or will Jones suddenly become overrated? It'll have to be one or the other, I'm sure, because there's very little chance those same people who are predicting an easy win for Jones are going to decide Calzaghe is more "elite" than they would've suspected. Seriously, I'm curious what the response will be by those who are certain of a Jones win. Look, Roy might not be TOTALLY shot, but he's clearly far past his prime (this is coming from a HUGE Jones Jr. fan). Most of the people claiming he's only a shade past his best are blinded by their loyalty to a great fighter. In the boxing world at large, I think it's generally accepted that Calzaghe is a big favorite going in and that Roy would have to pull a rabbit out of his ass to win. That said, I'm sure hoping he does just that! Let's go Roy!!!!!

I definitely wanna see Joe C. vs. Pavlik, and I know a Jones win could derail that matchup, but.... I got way too much love for Roy to ever cheer against him. C'mon Roy, send that Limey fuck back across the Atlantic with his tail between his legs!!!

cool, but i wonder why the hell that guy pulled that out his ass?he talked about joe louis vs billy conn, how conn came in at 169 and joe was about 205. Yeah, and the Pittsburgh Kid (in my avatar) had the fight won, but couldn't stay away in the 13th, when Louis finally caught him and got the knockout. WWII delayed the rematch for five years, and by that time Billy just wasn't the same fighter. Can't think of many other fighters who could give that kind of weight differential away to a guy of Louis' caliber and still be competitive.

Hopkins has slowed down ALOT since the Taylor fight. Watch the 2 Taylor fights then watch the Calzaghe fight. He's twice as slow and throws half as many punches. If Bernard would have fought Joe around the same time he fought Taylor he would have won. Shit, watch the Winky fight. Both of those guys aged 10 years in the ring, right before our eyes.

Everyone's saying JMM, and at this point I probably agree, but... What if he defeats Casamayor to become the linear world lightweight champ, then rematches Pac and pulls it out? Does that change the equation? No matter what, I'm certainly not forgetting him.

joe will be forgotten about in america hes shit. only a bunch of bias british fans that will remember him Whoa, sweet avatar. There will never be another like Roberto. Let's go Bucs!!

Who is Nigel Collins and why should I care what he considers a worthy fight. Nigel Collins is the editor-in-chief of The Ring. You should care because it's a sign that this magazine, the once-proud voice of the boxing world, is now becoming a rag for GBP.

So these people posted below should give Calzaghe lots of credit if he beats Jones, as YOU are expecting him to LOSE. Alec900, bearman3000, black.ink, Blackmagesamura, BostonGuy, bp4pbjr, BRAVE-HEART, Coreyp, d-1-n-only, Dangerous Wlad, DanielTurcotte3, dog1dog2, Dunks, egreezy, Eman, floydfan, iBox4Real, ICANTLIE, iron_boy, j.razor, Jexy55, John Rawling, Kendo, kswizzy99, lance_uppercut, larryx, Left Hook Tua, Macho Madness, MikeBrew328, mitruth, mrboxing, mspiegelo, MWMerlino, Nicky_Hatton, nozorok, oaklandstephen, peleroy, PrettyBoyFloyd7, Randall_Hopkirk, reedickyaluss, RL_GMA, roundingace, RunW/Knives, sippiguy, SpArKeD-CoLd, steptwome, TEXSTRO, Thadrow, The Gold Mac, The Gray Fox, them_apples, TheWire, TruJoker1, TRUTH, Tunney, VirusTI, WESS, xEDDIEx, Zerwas1, Zocalo Those guys are just in denial. Look, RJJ is one of my all-time favorite fighters, but he's gone man. Let it go. I hope to god he finds a way to prove me wrong; however, I just can't see it.

i'd just like to see Roy pull it off.......if he doesnt oh well, my worlds not crashing down by any means Agreed. I can get with that 100%. now if Joe fought and beat Roy in his prime........thats another case entirely Would NEVER EVER happen. Not in a million years. So nothin' to worry about bro. :boxing:

They're using SRL as an example, nothing wrong with that....but as we all know, that isn't a prime Hagler. John Mujabi and Thomas Hearns 2 fighters that have more power then RJJ couldn't stop him. No insult to SRL but if Leonard would have faced the Hagler Thomas Hearns faced then SRL would have gone bye bye early. Exactly. And Hagler WON THAT FIGHT WITH SRL. Sugar Ray just flurried with 30 seconds left in every round and stole a bunch of them. Tough call between Hagler and RJJ, since I love both of them, but I just can't see Roy keeping Marvin off him for a full 12-15 rounds. Hagler by late stoppage.