Meldrick *should* have won the fight sure...if he hadn't been knocked down/out. JC took an amazing beating and stayed on his feet. I can't argue a call in a fight that close...it isn't like Steele waved it off as soon as Taylor fell...he gave Taylor the count, looked at Taylor to respond, and tried to give Taylor the benefit of the doubt. Regardless of why Steele waved it off, the fact that JC was still standing gives me all the warm fuzzy I need to know the right call was made when Taylor didn't respond.
Had Taylor put JC on his butt and Steele waved it off immediately would anyone have complained? Maybe...given that Taylor wasn't responsive though, I dunno if there's anything to question.
Reagrdless of the result, this was a hell of a fight!!! The ending doesn't really change its place in the *best fight of all time* standings does it?
As mentioned above, if Floyd stands with Pac and gets caught in the exchange he loses, probaby gets knocked out or stopped. That said I don't think Floyd could bring himself to fight in a way that he can't win. Once Floyd realizes trading won't get it done he will adjust and do whatever he has to do (run, stick/move, counter shots, etc) to win.
What makes the fight a robbery isn't the fact that it was close fight scored for one guy; it's a robbery because it was a single round from being a majority draw instead of a 119-110 raping. Either guy could've been the winner, but that scoring is that unqualified judge's attempt to marr something beautiful. All that said the greatness of this fight shouldn't be tarnished by the awful scoring, but we, the boxing public, must do our part to hold this judge accountable. And part of that means calling attention to the scoring, if that means using the word robbery, then that's a burden this fight will have to bear for a while.
I'm reminded of Barrera V Morales the first time. Larry Merchant went nuts after the fight saying Barrera should not win this fight by a 2 point round because that was no knockdown! Then he complained when Barrera lost. The point of that is that regardless of the immediate reaction to the scoring, the beauty of the fight itself willl endure long after people forget that nuances decided things in an unpopular direction at the time. Holyfield V Lewis 1 was similar (a draw are you serious?!)
I don't think Williams will have to look too far for a fight and neither would Martinez. If they don't fight eachother or take at least seven or eights months off they're going to risk fighting a much fresher, possibly hungrier fighter. Their safest risk would be fighting eachother again.
Seldom has Max been so poignant and eloquent but it was well said. To paraphrase he called out Pierre Benoit for his ridiculous scoring of a close fight. Essentially using his platform as a voice of HBO boxing to call shenanigans on that judges bs.
Few of us probably knew him personally, but we knew what he was about. That's why we love him and that is why we weep over his death. Let us mourn his passing and express our grief constructively honoring his memory on these forums. Don't complain that we express our sadness over his passing, if ever there was a fighter worth remembering, it was our beloved Arturo.
Lampley has always been biased to fighters he's liked, but this isn't to say he does a bad job. He's as human as anyone and there is no one I can think of better in all of sports who calls a better event. Without Lampley's voice and his dramatic style HBO wouldn't get a penny out of me. He alone is the sole reason I subscribe.
It's also worth noting that while he has demonstrated bias to one fighter or another, he has never just flat out favored a fighter without merit and rarely has shown a favoritism for the sake of showing it. Even Roy Jones earned Jim's ire when he punched Griffin on the canvas.
Throughout his entire HBO boxing broadcasting career he has always shown favor for the "gutsy" type of fighter. Gatti, Holyfield etc. Guys who take chances and show they want to fight; in this case Cotto was no different, he'd shown a history of fighting with passion and Lampley obviously appreciated that.
And not to belabor the point but Lampley choked up it seemed more to me as an emotional burst related to bxing as a whole, to go along with the blood n guts in the aforementioned post as well as his internal hurting for HBO's camera man. I seriously doubt there was anything nefarious or underhanded about Lamps getting teary eyed.
Floyd, like Roy Jones and and that other guy from the early 90's (his name escapes me right this second) never fight to be solely the best. Floyd is a smart business man!!! He knows he's lost a couple steps as he's gotten older and has never shown he would be great or even good vs many types of fighters. But he has always been very smart about getting the most $$$ for the lowest risk.
This kind of attitude from Floyd, with the insinuation that he could possibly be *ducking* someone!? is nothing new, he is hands down the best fighter right now (unless he's retired still, again, soon?) and no one he steps into the ring with will be favored over him, and for good reason.
Wether or not Floyd has a legacy as an all time good fighter or cracks the top 50 all time is never something he's ever shown to seriously pursue. For him it has always been to make lots of money, and he's been one of the very best at that :)
Lol @ "NABO Champion of the world"...that announcer was a piece of work. Paulie needs to get over himself though, the way he talks he thinks he's Ali's second coming =\ He only beat Juan Diaz, no world beater. Good luck to him though ~
I didn't see it in the thread but it was asked what Norris record was:
47-9-0 31KO
I think his last fight was against Keith Mullings or Laurent Boudouani? I'm not 100% certain on that but I remember being shocked when he lost to Mullings.
Terry had such confidence he reminded me of James Toney in how fantastically arrogant he was, and I would have picked him to beat Trinidad if they fought but not DeLaHoya
I thought it was such a sure thing I didn't even watch it =\ I should've learned my lesson when my buddies and I agreed to all go build furniture forts in the basement instead of watching Tyson and Douglas because "You know who's gonna win this!!"...but I digress, great moment for Mullings lol, still was quite a surprise.
Mayweather is way too smart to brawl with Cotto. Maybe after Floyd carves up Cotto for 6 or 7 rounds he would start to get comfortable and stand in and swing freely like he did to Gatti but to the original question the answer is absolutely no. Mayweather's boxing IQ is on par with Roy Jones, Pernell Whitaker, etc on down the line. Floyd is probably one of the smartest fighters of this era.
My call on Griffin beating Jones was solely based on the fact that Eddie Futch was in Griffins corner. I had met Griffin before and seen him work a few of the guys in the Spokane gym when I was there and it was ugly ugly ugly. The guy was super-slick when he was on his game. And having Eddie Futch in your corner? I think that gave even ordinary fighters like a 30 or 40% talent boost.
Not to discount your theory but is it even possible to train more than Floyd? Gym Rat is an understatement; I used to be super impressed with the amount of work Montel Griffin would put in, but even that pales in comparison to Mayweather, Mayweather is a round the clock kind of training machine and his focus ......
I put up my thoughts on it earlier in the thread and it is cool to see the other ideas out here too. Wouldn't it be neat if somewhere down the road a bastardized version of this post became someones training camp and they ended up beating Mayweather? Lol probably like one of the above posters: only in a video game.
Speed, power, chin, all favor SRL while defense and movement favor Floyd.
One thing that wasn't given as much attention that could very well decide the proposed matchup is what Brooklyn Bomber hinted at early in the thread and that is Floyds natural lack of aggression.
Ray was a ferocious fighter and had a terrific desire to bring offense, while Floyd's first instincts seem to be more of survival and countering. The fact that Leonard could take a punch also works against Floyd, even if Floyd managed to counter Leonard I don't seeit being the kind of counter shots Floyd gets off against lesser fighters like Hatton or DeLaHoya or even Genaro Hernandez. Once Floyd finds his punches don't damage Ray or make him timid it's all Leonard going forward and Floyd going backward. SRL UD 9-3 over Floyd.
DeLaHoya showed marginal success with a stiff jab, but obviously not enough discipline or stamina to keep it up. The key to beating Mayweather in my estimation has a lot of similarity to what Forrest showed beating Mosely and as much as I hate to say this John Luiz style would be a near perfect foil for Floyd. It is ugly, it is gritty, often dirty, but against Floyd I would see it being very effective.
Use a snapping jab to negate the speed and FFS use single jabs, maybe double jabs if you have VERY smart technique or can snap jab 1 out and can push jab 2 out before full retraction. Try to triple or throw a lazy jab and it's curtains; Floyd will turn your lights out with the counter shots.
Patience. Seek openings vs Floyd. He doesn't leave a ton of them but they are there. Lou Duva used to say that "turning" a fighter disrupts not only their standing power (if you can't plant your feet you can't put your weight on 'em) but it puts them out of position to throw and recover on balance. Look for the opportunities to close the gap on Floyd and turn him, tap him in the chest / solar-plexus and brace yourself for the inevitable return shots. He won't have full thunder behind them but you know Floyd is going to throw back. Give yourself the best chance at withstanding that by keeping him offbalance and not at enough distance to counter with the hard shots.
Outmuscling Floyd inside, not to be confused with outworking punch for punch or outsmarting trying to play headgames etc. I.e. hold a lot, squeeze his arms when you clench, roll the shoulder over center when not clinching, rough him up and PUSH him. This of course is easier said than done since Floyd himself (while not a huge puncher) is very, very strong and well conditioned.
Head movement. Not a little bit, a lot. Luiz had a mediocre chin when he was hit clean but he was seldom hit clean because he moved his head in an unworldly unorthadox manner. Roy Jones managed to tag Luiz several times since he was light years faster than Luiz, someone employing this ugly, unconvnetional head movement vs Mayweather needs to have obviously better reflexes than Luiz and better overall body speed.
Land a lucky haymaker. Not that this is something that should be a staple of training to fight Mayweather but if I recall there was about 10-15 seconds to go vs DeLaHoya and Floyd got tapped pretty good and looked very clumsy. It isn't out of the question to think he has a shaky chin and if someone landed soundly it stands to reason it would be "pretty easy" to finish "pretty boy".
Things NOT to do to beat Floyd:
Throw body punches to his oblique's / liver. With the amount of conditioning work Floyd puts in it is almost futile to try and slow him down with standard body punching. The effort you invest in going to his body in that manner will yield few dividends compared to the amount of punishment Floyd will dish out as you reach for his ribs.
Apply constant straight forward pressure. As fun or manly as it would be to see the fight being taken straight to Floyd it has been shown to be a foolish strategy vs his amazing talent. Hatton was surviving fine against Floyd but when he cranked up the pressure it was his undoing.
Do not try to trap Floyd on the ropes. He has great eyes, great reflexes and uncanny instincts. He's not as good as James Toney on the ropes but he's darn close. Keeping him there won't do a thing for you but make you tired, frustrated, and likely worse for the wear.
There's a "how to beat Floyd 101" the best contemporary fighter to do it in my mind already gave it the best shot he could sans the head movement and body punching and was about 7 years too late (DeLaHoya). Maybe as Floyd ages if he sticks around some not quite elite fighter will be able to pull it off.
The long and the short of it.....
The Long:
Neither guy has shown the ability to withstand hard shots reliably but here's the thing that keeps going through my head:
Tito is as proud and stubborn as they come every time he has been down he has gotten up. Even when he got punished by Hopkins he was trying to get up and continue at the end. He is a go out on your shield kind of fighter.
Roy Jones on the other hand....he's shown no ability to get up from a clean hard shot, and he has never proven he can "fight back" when the going gets rough.
Against one of the best finishers to come along in a while it stands to reason that Roy gets hit clean somewhere over the middle to late rounds and doesn't have the heart to fight back, folding under Trinidad's pride and pressure.
The Short:
Every time I have picked against Trinidad I have been wrong: vs DeLaHoya, vs Whitaker, vs Vargas, vs Joppy
Every time I picked against Jones I have been right: Griffin the first time, Tarver in fights 2 and 3.
My gut tells me Jones in a decision. My wallet tells me Trinidad in a beating.
Prime Tyson vs any of the three guys mentioned I would pick Tyson with the best chance of victory being Bowe. My take as follows.
Holyfield was too stubborn to fight Mike intelligently back in '91 or '92 and would either get kayo'd outright or TKO'd when he refuses to drop.
Bowe has the best chance of the three. Size, conditioning, athletic prowess, and talent aside, having Eddie Futch is what gives Bowe a chance to beat Tyson. Futch is the smartest trainer ever and could have come up with the way to beat Tyson even at Tyson's best. That said it's a toss up if Bowe could handle the pressure. Holyfield pushed Bowe to the brink, Tyson was much more than Holyfield.
Lewis!?!? All respect due to Lewis for being a classy guy and a respectable champion, but he has little to no business in the ring with prime Tyson. Lewis was stretched by a single punch by two guys who had mediocre power at best. He was hurt numerous times by guys with much less. In my mind this comes down to Mike's warior determination taking anything Lewis has and then somewhere in the middle rounds landing a right to the body and putting the lights out with the left uppercut.
One of the guys I always thought could've given prime Tyson a good fight was Ray Mercer. Not sure I'd pick him over Tyson but I'd give him a better shot than Holyfield or Lewis.
Steward is a great trainer no doubt but as a mouthpiece for his fighters he's too partial. I remember him saying these very same things about Holyfield after he trained Holyfield in the rematch win over Bowe. Holyfield was maybe an all time good at heavyweight, not an all time great.
Would Wlad be competitive in any era? Possibly but his poor stamina and weak chin would make me think twice about picking him against anyone in a 15 round fight or even against a fighter with 15 round stamina who was a contender.
I'll go out on a limb and suggest Wlad getting Kayo'd by Marciano / Frazier / Tyson. Wlad near his best got touched numerous times by the clumsy, awkward Sam Peter. If Peter could reach Wlad with his unrefined technique it stands to reason that any of those aforementioned would lay some serious hands on him.
Is it good on Taylor for not getting knocked out? Should we look to see Taylor at the top of any division ever again? Does it suggest that since Pavlik couldn't kayo an obviously inferior opponent a second time he's going to become a cautious, boring champion who's exciting days are behind him?
Pavlik showed some smarts sure, but his style of "boxing" Taylor didn't excite me. Of course Taylor never makes a fight exciting, every fight he has been in has been boring with the exception of when he got kayo'd....but I digress...or maybe I didn't even have a point =\
Seeing as how that was for a media day work out it wouldn't surprise me if that was done for show only. It would be more surprising if Taylor was revealing guarded training secrets or showing off things the public had never seen...but hammering a tire? That one has been around for ages. While it's pretty fair to assume Taylor doesn't have a ton of confidence he isn't a complete retard.
Impressive is an understatement, he's still faster than about anyone active today at any weight. Maybe Judah or Mosely have quicker hands shot for shot, but no one punches in combination like Roy his skill is a thing of beauty to behold.
A simpler explanation of why Roy tested positive for an illegal substance / over the sports allowed limit....he used more than the allowed limit for his sport. Pretty cut n dry there :p
It is commendable that Roy and his legions come up with reasons / excuses for hs cheating; wether wittingly or not he broke the rules. This same kind of excuse laden behavior showed up after he Kayo'd ice Griffin when Griffin was down. Fact is Roy got caught but did himself good by being reasonably honest and not going over the threshold again. I have a hard time buying the whole "I was not aware of..." mentality.
I know this is slightly off topic but every few fights George would have some awesomely candid comments out of the blue like that, that would make you think damn George is one smart dude! My favorite of his bickering with Lampley was after one of Michael Gran'ts fights, I think it was his win over Golota. And Lamps was saying how Grant is more than ready to handle Lewis when George responds with something to the effect of no Grant isn't even close to ready for Lewis.....thumbs up to George lol.
And since this is also about Larry"safety first" Merchant being tasteless too.....I liked when he thought Wayne Kelly should be pistol whipped for not stopping a Roy Jones fight, that one always made me laugh a lot.
Main issue for me is Taylor's technique. If dumping Steward in favor of someone else will improve him in any other area happens that is good for Taylor, but technically he is very raw, very unrefined. I'd like to see Taylor get humiliated not just knocked out. Maybe then he will take skill training seriously and not just try to come in as a miniature Jeff Lacy. Taylor's technique is so sloppy and amateurish it amazes me he has gone as far as he has.
Floyd wins this and makes it a snoozer anytime they fight. Only grossly inferior opponents bring out the beast in Floyd (Gatti anyone?). Skilled fighters (Oscar) tend to bring out the smarter, more cautious, boring Mayweather...and that cautious version is probably not beatable by anyone active.