It's old and it's true. I didn't know Phillips had him arm broken.
I don't think he fought MMA. He fought Masato in K-1 in 2003 and got stopped with leg kicks.
To protect his hands and he is a superior fighter.
Hahaha, I have always said this but it is good to see some proof to show to the naysayers that it isn't just me who knocks out bums! Boxing is number one because we are the bst. tyson was the baddest man on the planet, not gracie. I watched the MMA bums and I have to say that Haye would wipe the floor with Rampage and Forrest. they were fat slow bums and would never last 12 rounds. I think Haye woul whoop them in 3. As for Lee, he would have ben dealt with by Barrera, Pacman, Marquez, Morales and Prince Naz by KO!!! Martial arts are for bums and geeks who can't fight and what some make believe techniques to enjoy. Boxing is based on efficiency which makes it pragmatic and realistic!
"Boxing is number one because we are the best"
Truely brilliant reasoning.
Any boxer who has not trained extensively in defensive wrestling and submission defense gets taken down and submitted or knocked out on the ground if they fight in MMA. It's been proven with boxers who have gone into MMA and also top level kickboxers aswell.
Like armbars and takedowns will really help you with someone getting jumped by 3 or 4 attackers. Let's see mma guys take someone down on concrete without the help of an 8 foot fence.
Takedowns happen easily in freestyle wrestling, greco-roman wrestling, judo and sambo without the help of any fences.....
Hey mikedb1984, just wanted to say sorry for how I responded, shouldn't have been so aggressive in retrospect.
Part of the appeal of MMA is that people are beginning to accept that fighting is not just limited to standing up and striking. Grappling is as technically intricate as striking, and just as effective a method of finishing a fight.
Question for the ts.
Why did you ask this question in the boxing forum? Why not go to the MMA section and ask this question to people who actually might have an insight into the sport?
It's like you've already made your mind up and just want to have a load of people re-assure you of your opinion.
Street fights also include biting, eye gouging, stomping regardless of who is on the ground, pulling hair, hitting in the nuts, knees regardless of who is on the ground... So if i get an expert in shit like that is it safe to say that that person would definitely beat a UFC figther in a "real" fight? O_O
Well originally, the precursor of MMA, Vale Tudo had basically those rule sets, and it was still dominated by fighters who were the prototypes for modern MMA fighters. Yuki Nakai had his eye gouged so badly by Gerard Gordeau that he permanently lost sight in it, but he still won their fight inspite of being outweighed by around 70lbs. The early days of the UFC allowed everything but eye gouging, biting and fishhooking IIRC, but they were still dominated by guys like Royce Gracie and Mark Coleman.
Another thing is that there really aren't any experts in techniques like eye gouging, because those sorts of things can't be practiced on a resisting opponent. If there was a real no rules fight, I'd favour a fighter like a BJJ fighter or wrestler, who can control position over some guy claiming to be an expert in "dirty techniques".
Bas Rutten predates him. He was a Muy Thai guy learning catch on the fly.
This is true, but I would argue that the period in which Bas fought was vastly different to the world of MMA Crocop became a force in. Old Pancrase rules differed a lot to modern MMA. Bas never really picked up great takedown defense, but I think he could get away with it in Pancrase due to rope breaks and the tendency everyone had to just go for leglocks with eachother. I think had Bas been fighting today, he wouldn't have had anywhere near his level of success. Crocop on the other hand, fought in truely modern MMA and became a nigh unstoppable juggernaut.
Anyway, I still think my point stands. Defensive grappling is not something anyone can just come in and pick up.
the saddest part is that the "champion" is a 46 year old guy with like 20 losses and he was still dominating the shit out of WWF hulk hogan wannabe star Lesnar LOL!!!! UFC has stooped to its lowest levels mma truly is dying
Couture wasn't dominating Lesnar. He was defending the whole first round. The only thing he managed to do was escape from the bottom once. Lesnar took him down, and stopped Couture from taking him down.
Every MMA pbp website I've seen scored the first round for Lesnar.
My view is thanks to the hostility, boxing and UFC can't coexist.
So if you want to watch UFC fine.. go join Sherdog.
You can't be on the fence about that shit though cus it's one or the other.
I'm on boxingscene for a reason.. because I'll take boxing over MMA anyday.
What do you mean they can't co-exist? This isn't schroedingers cat, neither sport is in a grey area of "not proper existance" whilst the other is around.
They are co-existing, and they are both doing well.
I'm sure a good boxer can uppercut the asshole on the way in
I've never seen someone get knocked out with an uppercut as they shoot in for a takedown. Typically, the only times fighters get knocked out as they shoot in are with knee strikes.
Some other things to keep in perspective.
1) It's harder to be a successful pro boxer because there are probably millions more boxers in the world than there are MMA fighters.
2) MMA is still on it's first generation of fighters, so ofcourse the level is not going to be as high as it can be. There are literally fighters still active who were fighting at the birth of the sport. Were the first generation of boxers the pinacle of the sport?
3) Most pro boxers have been training since they were children. Only within the past few years have there been young kids start training specifically for MMA, and they haven't even really started their careers yet.
4) There are clearly fighters in MMA that are genuinely highly skilled athletes, but they are few and far between. Guys like GSP, Silva and Fedor show what MMA can become, but really, there are only one or two fighters like this in each weight division. In the future as this next generation of MMA fighter emerges, we are going to see divisions full of GSP's and Anderson Silvas fighting eachother.
5) People are mainly holding the striking of MMA fighters against them, ignoring the fact that their wrestling and grappling is clearly at a high level. Of all the component parts in MMA, striking has the furthest to go, and it is still very much a work in progress. Fighters are still figuring out what works best and how to adapt traditional striking stance to defend against takedowns.
6) A lot of people don't take into account how difficult it is to cross over from a striking background late in your career and pick up things like takedown and submission defense. Only one fighter has done that and been successful, and that was Crocop, who only started training for MMA at age 27. Some fighters like Anderson and Wanderlei Silva started striking at a young age, but incorporated grappling soon after.
People still need to realise that the fact Brock was a pro wrestler means nothing. The level he achieved in amature wrestling and his pure size/athleticism mean everything.
Wrestling is a huge part of MMA. Lesnar can basically choose where a fight takes place. If he fights a top striker, he can put them on their back and if he fights a top submission artist, they can't take him down. The majority of MMA fights are decided upon who can keep the fight in the realm of their choosing. No one in MMA is better equipped to choose what kind of fight he gets into than Lesnar.
Kazushi Sakuraba is widely considered one of the greatest of all time in MMA, he was a pro wrestler, but it was his amature wrestling credentials again which led him to success, being a top 3 All-Japan wrestler.
No man could go into boxing with no background and defeat champions, true. But in boxing, you can only box. In MMA, a fight is whatever you want it to be, if you have the ability to back up that choice. If you have one dimension of your game that means you can dominate everyone else with just that, then that's fair, it doesn't make you any less of a fighter. Likewise if you have freak athletic ability.
Lesnar is still not the best heavyweight in the world. The majority of the top heavyweights in MMA reside outside the UFC, and I still think he'll lose again to Mir or Nogueira.
But seriously, Lesnar being in the WWE means nothing. It's a complete miss-representation of his skills as a fighter. You're using his pro-wrestling background as a buzz term to discredit him. If you want to properly represent what happened tonight, you'd say:
275lb 2 time NCAA heavyweight champion - Brock Lesnar - wins UFC heavyweight title.
That is a fair representation, and in no way a blight upon MMA.
In every scenario other than the beach at Rio or a middle school playground, Penn gets fucked up. Period. Its not going to the ground
IN MMA he's a badass. I love watching Penn. Am a huge fan, just wish he'd stop being a fatass and ruining his potential.
You have no logical reasoning for the post other than the "ground game". I've gone over why that doesn't work over an over again.
Also what's with you and fat overweight fighters? Tito, Tua, Penn? You love the lardos.
How would Penn not be able to take it to the ground? History says your wrong. I can't recall any MMA fight where a pure striker managed to keep the fight standing without having spent a long time training takedown defense in advance. The only fighter to have come from a pure striking background and become a top MMA fighter is Mirko Crocop, and he only achieved that with a long long time spent training wrestling.
The only times a grappler gets knocked out trying for a takedown have been through knee strikes, such as in Gomi vs Ralph Gracie, Hansen vs Imanari, Anderson Silva vs Carlos Newton.
About keeping the fight standing, David Haye did an interview in a UK MMA magazine recently and gave his thoughts on the differences in striking styles between MMA and boxing, and defending takedowns as a boxer:
"A traditional boxer can't get off with the same punches he'd be able to throw in a boxing match. You have to consider getting hit with fists, legs and takedowns. Balence-wise, and in terms of leverage, the two styles of punching are completely different. In MMA, you're always moving and changing angles to avoid shots, clinches and takedowns. That automatically takes away the balence and the moment to set you'd need as a boxer"
"Unless you adapt to the kind of stand-up needed in MMA, you'll get taken down as soon as you set your feet up to throw a big shot. A boxer wouldn't be as effective punching wise in an MMA contest as he would be in a boxing ring. A lot of boxers don't realise that and think they can just turn up and bomb the MMA guy out. While there's always a chance of that happening, it's only a slim chance."
"I'd sometimes play games with MMA guys down the gym where I'd attempt to get off a clean shot before they could take me down. They would usually take me down eight times out of ten. I'd land my shot only twice in ten attempts"
I wish people would stop mentioning Kimbo. He's a nobody in MMA (accomplishment wise) and he's only popular because of the youtube generation. He'd get ko'd badly.
Boxing will always be around and will always be popular, the history of this sport is very rich. Go to any gym and you'll see the gym full. Boxing is all about skill - technique, good stance, footwork, hand-eye co-ordination, head movement, throwing fluid combo's. MMA on the other hand is just some wild brawl shit, throwing wild looping "strikes" and hope they land, 2 full grown men wrestling on the mat, which looks very disturbing. throw an MMA "striker" in the ring with 16 oz gloves and see how he goes standing up with no wrestling against a boxer-puncher. on the other hand, throw a boxer-puncher (say, a kessler, who throws quick hard accurate punches) in the cage with those tiny gloves and see how the "striker" goes.. He could try take the boxer-puncher down but would get KTFO trying to step in a close and "shoot"
David Haye did an interview in a UK MMA magazine recently and gave his thoughts on the differences in striking styles between MMA and boxing, and defending takedowns as a boxer:
"A traditional boxer can't get off with the same punches he'd be able to throw in a boxing match. You have to consider getting hit with fists, legs and takedowns. Balence-wise, and in terms of leverage, the two styles of punching are completely different. In MMA, you're always moving and changing angles to avoid shots, clinches and takedowns. That automatically takes away the balence and the moment to set you'd need as a boxer"
"Unless you adapt to the kind of stand-up needed in MMA, you'll get taken down as soon as you set your feet up to throw a big shot. A boxer wouldn't be as effective punching wise in an MMA contest as he would be in a boxing ring. A lot of boxers don't realise that and think they can just turn up and bomb the MMA guy out. While there's always a chance of that happening, it's only a slim chance."
"I'd sometimes play games with MMA guys down the gym where I'd attempt to get off a clean shot before they could take me down. They would usually take me down eight times out of ten. I'd land my shot only twice in ten attempts. As I've practiced over the years I've now reversed that ratio and am able to get my punches off around eight times out of ten. It's taken me over six years to eventually be able to achieve that."
(On a potential MMA fighting stance) "(it would be) completely different to the way I box as a pro boxer. It would resemble more of a kick-boxer's stance and there'd be less emphasis on getting heavy on the front leg".
So, bottom line, you can't be as effective in MMA with an orthodox boxing stance.
And, imo you tend to see more wild brawls in MMA because MMA hasn't attracted as many great pure athletes as it one day will. Great pure athletes in MMA are guys like GSP who have been training a variety of arts since they were very young. We haven't really seen an athlete in MMA like GSP go up against another athlete of similar abilities. MMA as an art form is still being refined. As more and more kids train from a young age specifically for MMA, the skill level displayed in fights will go up.
The Mir vs. Noguiera fight is a poor example because
- Noguiera's gist of his stand up were from training with the Cuban Boxing Team when he was fighting in Pride FC.
- Noguiera is way past his prime. Compare this fight to his fight with Barnett and Cro Cop and you'll see a different person.
A better example if you want to use is Rashad Evans vs. Liddell.
Also I'm sure Noguiera didn't go for the take down cuz he probably thought He had better stand up than Mir in which case Mir surprised him. Also Noguiera has been known to be versatile so it's not a surprised if Noguiera gets knocked down a lot in a fight.
Thank you for pointing this out.
Like I posted earlier, people should watch his fight with Sergei Kharitonov. Nog looked a completely different fighter tonight, he had no head movement, he looked slow and his chin is now really fragile. He threw literally about 3 punches in the first round.
I mean, Nogueira has defeated opponents with his striking, I don't think anyone was wrong in predicting Nog to pick apart Mir standing. Nogueira has survived against and outstruck better strikers than Mir. He was able to do more to Fabricio Werdum standing than Arlovski could.
It really does just appear that time caught up with him.
if you notice, most of the best strikers with takedown defense in mma don't have an extensive background in wrestling. cc, rampage, andrei arlovski, bj penn, liddell, tim slyvia, etc. so i'm guessing it would be nothing for a boxer to learn td defense. if that's the case then yes the boxer is likely to win. even machida, a fighter with no takedown defense, was able to keep the fight standing and outstrike tito ortiz, who is an accomplished wrestler.
Arlovski - trained Sambo before anything else.
Rampage - High school state wrestling champ.
BJ Penn - BJJ Prodigy
Liddell - College division 1 wrestler
Sylvia - High school wrestler
Machida - Sumo wrestled from a young age.
And about Nogueira - his time is sadly over. He looked slow, had no head movement. He's fought better strikers in the past and performed a lot better than he did tonight.
In the 2004 Pride Heavyweight tournament, he had a back and forth fight with Sergei Kharitonov, which was largely a standing battle. Kharitonov turned down the oppurtunity to box at the 2004 Olympics to participate in the tournament. Both gave a good account of themselves, and it's clear that the Nogueira who fought tonight is far removed from the fighter he was 4 years ago. To say these guys completely lack boxing skill is unfair.
Lets be real here, a boxer would likely be more successful in MMA than an MMA fighter in boxing. The majority of the wins tonight were from strikes that lead to a KO. These are grapplers and wrestlers with minimal boxing skill winning with strikes, imagine a STRIKER with minimal wrestling and boxing skill? its not even debatable.
Minimal wrestling skill would not be enough for a boxer to keep the fight standing against an accomplished wrestler.
I still don't understand why anyone would let themself be picked apart with simple boxing. He looked hurt to me on two of the three knockdowns, so I don't understand why he wouldn't change his gameplan. Is Noguiera just an idiot? It seriously was one of the worst performances I've ever seen from a fighter, boxing or MMA.
Mir is not the kind of fighter you want to desperately shoot for a takedown on. Nogueira has shown some vulnerabilities to the kind of dynamic submissions Mir specialises in. When you compare their styles, Nogueira is a very orthodox grappler, he uses the established BJJ ethos of securing an advantageous position, then the submission. Mir has a more aggressive style of BJJ, he'll go for unorthodox but powerfully applied submissions from things like sloppy takedowns and transitions.
Nogueira had the right gameplan initially, I just think his body has given up on him.
I'm not threatened by that homo-errotic sport they call MMA. They're fans are 90% rednecks & frat boys. That's a small demographic compared to mass audience that boxing attracts.
Sure they have suffered in recent years, but boxing has always had its peaks & valleys. I really don't think 2 guys dryhumping in a cage will win over boxing fans. The old "Slamdunk vs Actual Game" concept is worn out. That piece of shit Joe Rogan wore that out long ago. I personally have never seen a fight end with guys man humping on the ground. Most that I have seen was a few flurries and someone got dropped.
I'll end with 2 of my favorite quotes:
“UFC ain’t shit, it ain’t but a fad. Anyone can put a tattoo on their head and get in a street fight. These are guys who couldn’t make it in boxing. So they do (MMA). Boxing is the best sport in the world and it’s here to stay.” - Floyd Mayweather Jr - (2007)
"I don't think that we really paid much attention to them.* I see that as a fad, to tell you the truth.* To me it's not a sport.* I used to see that in my old neighborhood in the Bronx.* The fact of the matter is if you look at it with all their hype and all the rest of the stuff, Oscar de la Hoya verses Mayweather itself in the aggregate grossed as much as almost all of their MMA fights of the year, one fight. Now you're going to add this card that's coming up now, between the two cards, they out-grossed the entire MMA fights for the year." - Jeff Lacy (2007)
Do you have any plans on joining Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) events such as the URCC?
"Well, I like that kind of fighting because it's harder than Boxing, but I'd rather learn all the techniques first before joining this sport. It's not that because I'm a boxer it means I know everything in the art of fighting you know."
- MANNY PACQUIAO
seriously, why do you guys actually believe that a boxer wouldn't train in BJJ, grappling and would ACTUALLY have a boxing stance in an MMA fight?
Well, then he's not a boxer anymore, he's an MMA fighter. But that stuff still isn't easy to pick up.
David Haye did an interview not long ago where he slated Enzo Maccarinelli's thoughts about trying MMA. He basically stated that he would try land clean shots on MMA guys before they could score a takedown at his gym. He said he'd get taken down before he could land the shot 8/10.
Pac, interview with Filipino MMA promotion URCC:
"Do you have any plans on joining Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) events such as the URCC?
Well, I like that kind of fighting because it's harder than Boxing, but I'd rather learn all the techniques first before joining this sport. It's not that because I'm a boxer it means I know everything in the art of fighting you know."
A lot of people need to appreciate how hard takedowns and takedown defense is to learn. Penn has taken people down who have wrestled their entire lives, fighters who have trained specifically to avoid. He's a fighter who won a Judo blackbelt tournament after a few months of serious training, when he was still a BJJ white belt.
Haye spoke in a recent interview about practicing keeping a fight standing against MMA fighters, seeing if he could land a clean shot before he was taken down.
"Despite always starting on my feet with these guys, I was finding myself taken to the mat eight times out of 10. That gives me a two in 10 chance of landing a hard punch and knocking my MMA opponent out."
In a street fight, ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN.
As far as what descipline is best? THEY ALL HAVE PROS & CONS. Don't be so single-minded.
But to those who disrespect boxing, GO **** YOURSELVES.
I have friends that train in judo and think they would kick my ass if they get a hold of me.
BUT YOU THINK I WONT PICK A SPOT ON HIS FACE & SHATTER HIS BONES AS HE COMES IN?
Boxers are trully the top conditioned athletes in the world, hands down. These guys train becuase their lives are on the line.
AND IF YOU THINK BOXING IS WEAK COMPARED TO MMA.
THATS WHY THE #1 GUY (CHUCK LIDDELL) IS KNOWN AS A "GREAT" STRIKER!
You guys are idiots. This guy who rules the MMA does it with his fist. HOW FUNNY IS THAT?
Boxing has been around since the 4th century BC when the Greeks competed in boxing matches in the original Oylmpics.
BOXING IS OVER 2000 YEARS OLD. I mean skilled boxing, with technique, not monkey fights.
Get in the ring, see for yourself, and give boxing the respect it deserves.
It's probably a bit different in Judo, given that it's based around upper body clinch work, but you never really see someone get knocked out with punches in MMA as they shoot in for a takedown. You have a better shot of knocking them out with a knee strike.
Liddell isn't a great striker. His success in MMA was down to the fact that he had the wrestling to keep the fight standing, and his stand-up was better than his opponents. He has clear weaknesses in his stand-up when compared to guys like Anderson Silva or Crocop who are a lot more polished. And he's not the top guy anymore, he's 1-3 in his last 4 fights and has been ko'd twice.
MMA has been around a few thousand years too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankration
sports science prove be it 3oz or 12oz is weakens the punch the same, MMA fighters just dont have decent chins, that why they go 2 the ground
Are you seriously suggesting that only a select group of people who because of genetics have weak chins are drawn to MMA? How would that work exactly?
I think people miss that one of the main draws of MMA is that when you watch it you are actually watching the best fighters in the world. That's what drew me to it, even though I didn't immediately understand all the intricacies of grappling, the appeal was that this is the reality of fighting, and it compelled me to make myself understand the sport. Even if some of the fights are slow, that's fine to me because that's the nature of the sport, grappling usually takes longer to progress. I don't expect the sport to change for me, if you want to be a fan of the sport, you should become a fan of it as it is, not expect it to change and become more fast paced because you want it to be.
And for people saying "grappling is gay", I'd like to know if you can provide any verifiable proof for this statement, beyond your own opinion.
I never knew that street fighting was an art. And women roll and fight on the ground. Guys stand up and punch and when it goes to the ground either
One guy is on top smashing the other dudes face or one guy is standing up kicking and throwing puros chingasos.
MMA is rubbing chest hair and hugging on the ground. FUCK THAT!!!!
Well typically an MMA fighters training schedule will comprise of roughly equal parts:
muay thai/kickboxing
boxing
freestyle or greco roman wrestling
brazilian jiujitsu/submission grappling
I fail to see how any of those are not arts.
"It's for women" and "FUCK THAT"
Hmmm, yes, brilliant justification as to why grappling has less intrinsic worth as a sport than stand-up fighting. Can you provide some verifiable proof as to why grappling "is for women" as you say? You're still not using anything other than your opinion.
Yep, and grapplers with shitty stand up get beat up really bad when they can't take their opponent down.
And when can they not take their opponents down? When their opponent has learned some defensive wrestling and learned to stuff shots and avoid clinch takedowns.
Best fighters in the world what a joke? Most of these guys are overhyped bums and a lot of the fights look like highly evolved schoolyard fighting.
Actually, if you're looking at the UFC, most of them are former high school and collegiate wrestling champions and world class brazilian jiujitsu black belts.
Pure grappler beats a pure striker 99% of the time, this has been proven time and time again. That is the draw, is that the fighters in MMA would be able to defeat boxers in a form of combat where the boxer is not in anyway limited in what they can do within that fight. Of all combat sports athletes on earth, MMA fighters are best placed to defeat the other top level athletes from other combat sports. The top level MMA fighters can in theory, take down and submit the worlds best boxers and kickboxers, submit the worlds best wrestlers and stop the takedowns and knock out the worlds best submission artists.
This has not been proven in anyway, shape or form. When have you seen a fight between a top grappler against a top boxer, it has never happened.
There are not many fights between between true top boxers and grapplers, but there have been many instances of world class kickboxers, whose striking skills far exceed those of any fighters in MMA going in to MMA fights and being quickly submitted.
Although the most recent example of a boxer vs grappler would be in 2004, when Francois Botha fought a 185lb judoka named Yoshihiro Akiyama making his debut in MMA and was quickly taken down and submitted by armbar in under 2 minutes.
It has long been proven that pure strikers who make no effort in learning any takedown defence prior to entering a competition with a pure grappler nearly always get taken down and submitted quickly.
If chuck lliddell can be so dominant with his sloppy ass striking and tim silvia imagine what Wlad Klit can do if taught some takedown defense.. can u take some bum off the street i.e Kimbo slice and headline him on national tv in boxing after a few months of training lol i dont think so
also u say strikers beat grapplers 99% of time.. thats not true in the UFC most of those champions fight stand up.. Rich Franklin, Chuck Liddell, St Pierre, Silvia, silva,robbie lawler etc..
Chuck Liddell was a division 1 collegiate wrestler long before he started kickboxing.
Tim Sylvia was a high school wrestler, Franklin had a wrestling background and BJJ brown belt, GSP has trained his wrestling for a long time with the candian olympic team and is to be honest, a supernaturally talented freak in that he was able to completely out-wrestle Matt Hughes, an All American wrestler.
Anderson Silva has a BJJ black belt and is a ridiculously good grappler.
Lawler also came from a wrestling background.
Every fighter you listed there was a wrestler first, except for Anderson Silva who started grappling not long after starting striking.
The only fighter to come from a pure striking background and picked up takedown defense relatively late in their game to make a serious dent in the rankings is Mirko Crocop, and even he, as dangerous as he is still ends up on his back.
Saying "all you have to do is teach world class boxer x good takedown defence" is as stupid as saying "well just teach that olympic wrestler elite boxing". Defensive wrestling and submission defence is incredibly hard to pick up.