Manny only had 1 arm and still outboxed Floyd.
There is clear video evidence of this that is even slowed down to accurately point out every single punch and the result shows that Manny out landed Floyd somewhere around 100 - 70.
Floyd also used illegal iv for that fight.
That's why Floyd doesn't stand out
not surprising; off the top of my head several incidents come to mind:
ducking manny for 5 years by moving the goal post on the testing. (Later turns out floyd was paying usada out of his own pocket to hide his positive ped tests and enable him to use illegal ivs).
ran from one armed manny for 12 rounds en-route to getting outlanded 120-69.
ducked mosley until mosley turned 40.
ducked odlh rematch - 1st was life and death and could have easily been scored for oscar.
drained canelo when he was barely 20 years old.
brought marquez up 2 weight classes.
retired when the WW division was stacked only to return once they had all beaten each other.
brought hatton up from 140 and needed to get favorable referring again.
a few more minutes of research would probably yield another dozen or so instances
No one in this Era would agree to Floyd's personal usada testing program which was designed to let him get away with positive tests and illegal ivs.
We aren't sure how clean Floyd was for his ww run.
We do know he was on illegal ivs against manny and we do know that manny out landed him 120-69, while having a verified right shoulder injury.
Looking at some of the highlights of Floyd's ww run.
-dragged Hatton up from 140 and needed the help of the ref.
-dragged Marquez up from an even lower division then cheated on the scales.
-string of unimpressive victories against 40 year old mosley, Ortiz, Guerrero etc. (likely on peds at this time)
-life and death twice with maidana.
-confirmed to be cheating against Pacquiao and got out landed 120-69. Most thought manny won.
Outside of ww his recent history involves draining canelo down to 152 and going life and death with a YouTuber.
Logically speaking, we'd have to conclude that if Floyd were to undergo the same testing procedures as others, he likely doesn't fare all that well against real competition.
Manny vs Floyd true punch stats as per verified slow motion video:
Manny landed 120, Floyd landed 69. This was first conclusively demonstrated 6 years ago. It has not yet been refuted and never will be because its simply true.
Manny landed more punches statistically - and his punches were also visibly more impactful than floyd's little slaps. Manny was not hurt even once in the fight. Floyd was wobbled and visibly hurt at least twice.
Manny was injured (proven by accredited doctor post-fight), and denied a legal painkiller.
Floyd was on IVs (proven by the TUE), and the most logical conclusion is that this was used to mask PEDS.
What stands out is that floyd had 2 game-breaking advantages going into the fight (floyd being on illegal substances while his opponent was injured), and was still conclusively outboxed. The numbers do not lie.
Most would agree canelo's resume is ahead of Floyd's by this stage.
Floyd's biggest wins in the latter half of his career are all tainted.
Manny fight most people actually agree that Manny won. Floyd needed an iv and peds and still wsd outboxed by 1 handed Manny. That's the sad truth - see spoons vid for proof of the true punch count.
Floyd's win over canelo is tainted because the simple truth is that canelo was a weight drained teenager. Floyd didn't even win convincingly so barely getting by a teenage zombie doesn't really count.
Floyd was also given a gift in both maidana fights, specially the first.
Floyd fans are the only ones who like to pretend Floyd's career isn't overrated.
Would you suggest Ray Leonard wasn't in haglers class?? Leonard waited it out until hagler slowed down and even then the win is controversial
It's similar stuff we don't take away from hagler when he was obviously past his prime I that close defeat
Mayweather was hurt twice against pacquiao that's hardly cruise control my friend
Let's expand upon this a little further.
Spoon's thread provides links to round-by-round analysis videos clearly demonstrating that manny outlanded floyd in most of the rounds. Not only did manny land more punches - his punches were also much harder. Was manny ever wobbled in the fight? No. Was floyd wobbled? Yes.
In the 5 years that thread has existed, have there been any convincing arguments to suggest these videos are wrong? No - therefore, we have to conclude that manny did in fact outland floyd by a significant margin and also land more effective punches on average.
Most unbiased, logical people would conclude that getting outlanded by your opponent by 40% does not qualify as cruise-control.
Then let's also consider the following:
Floyd had to go out of his way to pay for the testing out of his own pocket so that he could get favorable testing. This had to be done so that he could use PEDS / other illegal substances. We know for a fact that he had to receive a retroactive TUE for illegal IVs, which is definitely not normal. If floyd was not paying usada himself, would he have received a TUE? Probably not, most likely he would have been labeled a blatant drug cheat and his "win" would have been turned into a no-contest (or a loss, considering he actually lost the fight in most peoples' eyes).
So on the one hand, he was outboxed and outlanded in the fight. On the other hand, he had to go out of his way to fund USADA and then damage his own body with PEDS/illegal substances to the point that 5 years later he got beat up by a youtuber. I too am puzzled as to how floyd's performance could be synonymous with cruise control.
Using the canelo and Floyd's fight from last decade doesn't help to answer the question. There are some major factors which would change in the event of a rematch.
A) Floyd wouldn't be able to weight drain canelo down again.
B) canelo is no longer a green teenager
C)now that Floyd is a confirmed ped user, both fighters would have to use a neutral unbiased testing agency. Floyd can no longer pay usada to hide his positive ped tests and grant him a tue 2 weeks after the fact for illegal iv.
Floyd already struggled to beat him the first time around. I don't see Floyd winning against canelo with those 3 factors no longer in play
Simply put, one only needs to look at spoons thread which shows Manny clearly out landing Floyd in most rounds.
The fact that Floyd avoided Manny for half a decade before getting outboxed by Manny is also why neutral observers don't give Floyd a whole lot of credit.
Floyd's TUE and avoiding the 5 million dollar positive test fee also dont help to alleviate concerns about his ped usage
Floyd is the best defensive fighter of this era.
His offense…not so much. His ability to pick and choose all details of his fights gave him leverage for his lack of offense and makes him seem better than what he is.
Also worth mentioning that Floyd also paid usada out of his own pocket. That's how he was able to get a free pass on the failed drug tests from 2010 - 2012. The TUE he got against Manny may perhaps be one of the most blatant examples of favoritism in sports.
Im also suspicious of why Floyd declined the 5 million dollar positive test fee if he was indeed clean.
I also agree with your assessment of Floyd's limited offensive skills. As we can see in spoons video, Floyd was actually out landed significantly by Manny in their fight.
catch weight fight against a drained teenager.
and as time goes on, floyd's ped usage becomes more and more suspect. he was likely on peds for this fight too
It is funny that one of the reasonings from Pac’s camp was that Mayweather had USADA under his thumb and thus they were requesting to let the commission do the random testing or give the job to a non-affiliated testing org. Then we got all the dirt on USADA giving Floyd illegal IV’s, destroying samples etc. I don’t think they ever caught anyone except Morales, and I’m sure that that was an accident.
Usada caught morales and still allowed the fight to happen.
That alone should show how corrupt usada is.
Now imagine some guy like Floyd who will gladly pay money to get an unfair advantage slipping money to usada under the table - this is why his illegal iv was approved via TUE. Also why his abnormal TE ratios were not further investigated.
But according to Floyd fans, there is nothing suspicious about this arrangement at all
Where is this "Floyd schooled Manny" idea coming from?
There is an 800 page thread in the other section showing conclusive evidence of Floyd getting out landed by one armed Manny.
To this day, no one has offered a convincing rebuttal.
Face it - Floyd loaded up on illegal ivs, then had to run and hug all night against one armed Manny because he and his corner knew he was getting outclassed.
Landing 3 or 4 grazing jabs is not a schooling. The way Manny punished Floyd in the 4th with a monster left more closely matches the definition of schooling.
Who did Floyd actually school? Castillo was a robbery. Odh split decision lucky decision. Marquez brought up several weight classes. Canelo weight drained.
same idiots who accused manny of peds somehow dont seem suspicous of
a) Floyds abnormal TE ratios
b) Floyd paying USADA himself to manipulate testing
c) Floyds illegal IV
d) floyd's undisclosed weights on fight night.
Manny vs Floyd scorecards were all wrong. Floyd was out landed both in terms of quantity and quality. Should have been a win for Manny - draw at the very worst if you give Floyd every close round.
Spoons thread details this very well. Round 3,4,6,7,10,12 - those are 6 rounds that I cannot possibly see how anyone scored for Floyd. The other 6 rounds were mostly debatable. Floyd only won 1 or 2 rounds clearly.
Other bad decisions were Kovalev vs ward and ggg vs canelo.
where are all these counters though? that simply didnt happen. pac actually had far better counters than floyd. if you go through it round by round you can see pac landed far more clean punches while floyd mostly landed a very weak grazing jab. dont think that is good enough to win we have the video so not sure how you can come on here and say that floyd was landing great counters when that didnt happen. you seem to be scoring based on what you thought pac could do not what actually happened between the two fighters. which fighter did better when they fought each other? not did pac do as good as he did vs margarito or clottey or someone else. that would be like saying floyd didnt fight pac the way he fought corley so i guess pac made him scared and pac won! thats not how you score fights.
watch round 7. dominant pac round...all the judges gave it to floyd. floyd landed one solid jab that rocked pacs head back, and about 4 other mediocre/low quality jabs with nothing on them. pac landed a huge left hand counter(i thought floyd was the counter puncher), a big left to the body that doubled floyd over and forced him to hold, another decent left counter to the head, a big right that rocked floyd head around, 2 more good rights that moved floyds head(notice how i say moved its because almost none of floyds jabs moved pacs head at all) and 2 more rights that were decent. he landed more clean punches but the quality of his punches was ten times better. round to floyd according to you and the judges. thats just bad judging if you think floyd won that round. i can understand missing it on first viewing but i assume you have seen the fight many times now? a lot of the rounds were just like this. floyd couldnt really get much going offensively and pac just had the much better shots. for what reason would floyd deserve to win based on that?
you want to give floyd credit for some great performance but he stunk out the place and was hesitant for almost the entire fight. when pac started landing floyds offense diminished to nothing more than a weak jab with no leverage that almost never landed cleanly. he snuck in a nice shot every now and then but yeah he was not countering pac every time pac attacked. he was too busy focusing on moving away which is why he had no leverage or body weight in the few punches he did connect on. pac had the leverage and body weight and the clean punches. floyd doenst win just becasue its a tactical fight. he still had to put in the good clean work and unfortunately for him he did not. it was a bad decision on a boxing basis and if you watch it back its pretty clear to see. this is no pac-marquez back and forth type action. its one guy landing cleanly and the other guy not really landing much clean at all. not the hardest type of fight to score unless you get really emotional about one guy...
Agreed on everything.
Round 3,4,6,7,10,12 - no idea how anyone could possibly score these for floyd.
Other than 1 or 2 rounds that floyd won, the remaining rounds were 50-50.
floyd fans are content with the corrupt/incompetent judging, and have yet to offer any credible challenge on the numerous videos posted showing manny clearly outlanding floyd.
floyd's highest profile wins are questionable when you consider context.
Castillo - even floyd fans admit he lost this one.
ODH- past prime, split decision - i.e. the win isnt even clear.
mosley - past prime. floyd ducked mosley for years.
ortiz - cheap shot in a fight many had ortiz winning to that point. (i read somewhere floyd may also have tested positive for PEDS prior to fight).
cotto - life and death fight with past prime cotto who had already suffered several beatings. a lot of people thought cotto won.
canelo - MD against a green weight-drained fighter.
Maidana - floyd needed a second fight since most people thought maidana was robbed in the first.
pacquiao - BS decision. floyd was outlanded almost 2:1 (see spoon's videos) by a one-armed, past-prime opponent. (Floyds TUE probably approved after a 6-7 figure payment to usada).
Floyd's resume is weak compared to manny's.
And their head to head match is full of asterisks.
a) Manny was injured.
b) Manny was denied a legal painkiller.
c) Floyd used illegal IVs (roughly 1,000% of the legal limit)
d) Floyd was also likely on PEDS and being accommodated by his special relationship with usada.
e) Floyd didn't even win in most peoples' eyes. Yes, he paid off the judges to score it in his favor, and floyd's fans will insist he won - but all objective people i have spoken to either scored it for manny or as a draw.
f) even if you somehow scored it for floyd, it would only be due to his naturally larger size/weight and nothing to do with actual being more skilled. When you consider that floyd was running from someone who's probably 2 or 3 inches shorter with a 5 inch reach disadvantage, then it makes his case even weaker.
All these "men" acting like women for a guy who don't give one lick about but he makes them feel good about themselves because if they can claim Floyd is the best that means they are too.
They're all just a ton of dick riders who are too gay to realize how stupid they look worshipping that guy in the way they do.
I also saw a close fight and scored the fight a draw or an edge to Manny. I personally didn't appreciate the championship rounds because all Floyd did was run because guy knew as long as he didn't get knocked out he was gonna win on cards and anyone who knows anything about boxing knows how hard it is to KO a guy who's only goal is to survive. So when Floyd bounced around the ring refusing to engage and raised his hand to the crowd during exchanges I gave none of them to him.
I've noticed a trend in boxing where it really doesn't matter how good of a fighter you are but it comes down to which side of the promotion you are on or who wants you to win.
And no, that doesn't take away from what Floyd did in the ring. Floyd takes those things away from himself with the antics he pulls.
Dude is so desperate for money he should have just fought Pac 3 times because it was "easy".
These fans? Floyd? The biggest cancers to the sport but they do what they do because they only care about themselves and feeling good about themselves.
Agreed on everything.
Round 3,4,6,7,10,12 - no idea how anyone could possibly score these for floyd.
Other than 1 or 2 rounds that floyd won, the remaining rounds were 50-50.
floyd fans are content with the corrupt/incompetent judging, and have yet to offer any credible challenge on the numerous videos posted showing manny clearly outlanding floyd.
sad news indeed.
floyd's legacy gets more tainted each day.
ducking opponents in their prime, suspicious indications of PED use and confirmed usage of illegal IVs (likely connected to aforementioned ped usage).
always been curious as to how anyone could end up with a draw in the 1st jmm fight.
its not even mathematically possible with 3 knockdowns. no surprise that the people i see having scored it a draw are mostly clueless and have no idea how to score a fight.
the fact that the judge even publicly acknowledged his error is in my opinion sufficient grounds to have the result retroactively changed to a win for manny.
the 115-110 scorecard for JMM has to be one of the worst i've ever seen.
Suppose you would need to compile a list of positive ped tests or verified usage of illegal substances.
Off the top of my head, Floyd stands out in the last decade for the abnormal te ratios and verified illegal iv levels well above accepted threshold.
i dont rate floyd that highly, but these things are always subjective.
I do think however, that as the years go by, floyd's placement on the atg list is going to unfortunately have to be asterisked for the following:
-Benefited from several gift decisions (Castillo, ODH, Manny (outlanded nearly 2:1)).
-Abnormal T:E ratios indicative of PED abuse. If not for the fact that he was personally paying USADA, his blood samples would likely have undergone a re-test. how many of the ATG fighters needed to pay a drug testing agency to cover up ped use?
-illegal IV usage. Floyd's IV levels prior to the manny fight were 1000% above the legal threshold. There can be no denying that this is massive red flag. Despite this advantage, he still got outlanded by a one-armed, past prime pacquiao.
-repeated history of ducking best available fighters at the time (margarito, cotto, pacquiao come to mind). majority of his signature wins were against fighters several years removed from their primes. ironically, floyd would somewhat reverse this trend during the canelo fight, where he instead fought a teenage, weight drained canelo.
Manny out landed Floyd 120-69, with one arm while Floyd was on peds.
I would go with manny doing best given that he was injured and Floyd was proven to be cheating during the fight.
That said, I think most would agree that Floyd probably didn't deserve the decision in any of the 3
I recalled reading that floyd was going to be giving spence advice.
wonder if this has anything to do with it.
floyd might have suggested that spence wasn't going to beat a 100% manny, since floyd had 1st hand of experience of getting outboxed and out-landed by one armed manny.
floyd was probably also not impressed with spence not paying for his own personal ped testing service which would enable him to freely use PEDS (and be granted a retroactive TUE just in case the ped use turned out to be too obvious).
why are floyd fans still posting as if manny didnt actually outland floyd as clearly indicated in spoons videos.
available evidence suggests 1 handed manny outboxed an IV-injected floyd.
manny will hopefully have both his arms for this fight, and unless spence has the clout to pay off judges, manny will not be losing every round by default like he did against floyd. Also, i dont imagine spence would have the clout to benefit from a TUE if he were found to be using peds/IV.
True, Pac neutralized Floyd's Jab. That's how good Pac is in evading jabs. Floyd couldn't use to his advantage. Spence will have the same problem. Pac will find away to take that out of the equation.
Manny's counter-punching and defense in that fight was very effective.
A lot of what floyd threw just got caught in gloves or simply evaded and countered. You could tell floyd was hesitant to throw the jab with any authority - hence why none of his punches seemed to hurt manny.
Floyd got caught bad in round 4 and from that point on he decided he'd just go into survival mode and let his paid judges score the fight for him. But even after round 4, i just saw floyd simply get outlanded in most rounds.
Faulty Analysis.
No mention of manny's injury and the fact that floyd only faced one-armed manny.
No mention of floyd's illegal IV.
No mention of manny conclusively outlanding floyd, complemented by the fact that he also easily landed the hardest punches in the fight.
people overrate defense in order to justify giving a fight to their favorite fighter when he gets outlanded.
if your defense does not ultimately result in landing a clean effective punch, the it doesnt deserve to be rewarded. matter of fact, all else equal, rounds should be scored to the aggressor for ring generalship - by opting to defend, backpedal and counterpunch, the defensive fighter is by definition surrendering the initiative, i.e. ring generalship, to the fighter moving forward.