And lets say Manny was on the TMT roster. I'm not trying to stir sh*t up but inevitably this will -- but I'm just making this thread as a fun hypothetical. I always hear from FMJ fans that Manny sucks and Manny's a fraud. I hear a lot of coward stuff among other things from Pac fans when it comes to Floyd but rarely do I hear one of them go at Floyd's actual ring skills. Idk maybe I'm wrong on that, though.
But if this admittedly insane hypothetical was true (in a bizarre upside down world where Manny & Floyd were boys), would Floyd fans appreciate his talent? Or would they still be criticizing him?
Mike D, Most Floyd fans have more of a problem with the over the top Pac fans, and vice versa, not the fighters themselves. like you said how can you honestly not respect Mayweathers skills, or how Pac comes to fight. Most of the "ish" talk is to rile the each side up, and from skimming thru this forum it works like a champ.
Quit blaming Arum. If Floyd wanted those fights, he could have had them. Easily. and Mosley is not going to fight Mayweather before the boss of GBP does.
It goes both ways! Who are you gonna blame, Manny will fight who Arum tells him to.
Mayweather was not the man at that time, Mosley danced around that because it was too much risk to reward; the same way the top guys are doing it now
From 06-09
Prime undefeated Cotto
Margarito who had been at the top of the rankings and the divisions longest reigning titlist.
Paul Williams
Shane Mosley
Manny Pacquiao
all fighting eachother, and thats not even including tough matchups Josh Clottey and Cintron.
Now, the division is flaccid and people want to point at Floyd and say, "LOOK LOOK, HES FIGHTING THE BEST RANKED WELTERWEIGHTS!"
I'll give you P-Will all day, (nobody wanted any part of 6 ft WW, with a 80 inch reach) and you do realize he along with Martinez called out some other people too.
You know as well as I do none of the fights with the Top Rank guys were gonna happen. NO GO!! and I blame Uncle Bob for that.
and you do realize when Mayweather went on vacay or duck season or whatever you wanna call it after the Hatton fight; Manny was fighting a couple weight classes below. He came up during the Mayweather break.
Mosley was called out way before this time period, but he didn't want the fight then, he said I will let Oscar take him.
what do you call retiring when the division was hot? i would call that slacking.
don't know if he wanted a break after 2 huge paydays or if he was avoiding, a so called hot division, but I am curious to get your opinion of what made the division hotter than any other time.
Arum has been in this business since before most of these posters were born. You make that statement as if the man lives paycheck to paycheck. But if that is your statement, and you feel its true,
do you feel the same way when Bob was Floyds promoter, that he didn't want to risk his "golden goose"?
First, Floyd didn't make Arum alot of $$$, Floyd's "big" paydays didn't start coming until he left TR and created that Money Mayweather persona.
Whatever beef Arum and Mayweather have is what I'm talking about. Neither 1 of them want to see the other get the upper hand in $$$$ negotiations. You know it and I know it.
The problem I think is that people see everything in white or everything in black. It's almost impossible to see objective people on this site.
You claim that Floyd never fights against good fighters. I mean you can't deny that as soon as Cotto left Top rank the fight was made. Floyd demanded no catchweight ( like another guy), Cotto was coming from 3 big wins that didnt go to the distance.
The guy saying Floyd waited for Mosley to get older is a joke. Floyd was begging to fight DLH and Mosley before the Gatti's fight. Mosley was having teeth "issues". Then after the fight where Mosley decapitated the cheater Margarito everybody on the site was saying Floyd would never fight Mosley, he did and now he was ducking him ?
Source : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfXs6_415zs
Ortiz was coming off wins and many people thought he was a live dog.
Personally, I'm trying to stay objective and here is what I think of his last fights :
Guerrero : Cherrypick, Floyd knew Guerrero had no chance against him, disgusting fight
Cotto : I give credit to Floyd, Cotto was coming off 3 big wins and the top 154 guy, he didnt demand any catchweight
Ortiz : Good fight, Ortiz was a good prospect but a mental midget.
Mosley : Huge credit, he was #3 p4p, destroyed the hype-job Margarito and everybody claimed he would never fight him
Marquez : Cherrypick, Marquez is a legend but Floyd knew he would toy with him. Still impressive that he toyed with a master like Marquez, but... a cherrypick
Ricky Hatton: Ton of credit for this fight, this fight was huge and many people thought Hatton would beat him.
So I think that Floyd's career is a mix of good fights with cherrypicks, but like i said people see everything in white or everything in black. You can take any fighters in history and you will see a mix of cherrypicks and good fights.
That was my grain of salt, peace.
^^^^^^
Good grains of salt, but there will never be objectivity when it comes to Mayweather or Pac for that matter; there are to many Hardcore "FANatics" on both sides. Can Floyd fight,.. hell yeah, can he be an a$$,..hell yeah, but boxing is what we watch, don't really care what he does outside the ring. People on here either overlook, or haven't been following boxing long enough to know Floyd was the guy calling out alot of people because he wasn't the big draw yet. All they have to do is watch the post fight interview of Mosley/Vargas II to see some good tap dancing by Shane.
As far as the "cherrypicking" everybody in his position sets up the fights that are the best risk to reward situations.
Why would you blame bob arum? The guy who helped make mayweather a star and stood behind him when hbo wanted nothing to do with him? Not to mention Arum is the guy who saved floyd and possibly his family's lives by paying of his gambling debts and buying his contract from j prince. Only a pathetic ingrate would blame bob for his problems after that... Oh wait,??
Don't try the Floyd fanatic crap,. I'm the wrong guy!
I blame Arum because he doesn't want to risk the golden goose possibly getting beat. I say Arum, because I don't think manny gives 2 ****s if he loses or not. That is Floyd and Arum's ego beef, not wanting each other to get the upper hand on the $$$$$
and pathetic ingrate,....really, you should'nt get so much in your feelings over a forum post.
I don't really care about Arum did or didn't do with all the other nonsense, I'm talking about the fight being made.
If Malignaggi was wrapped around his kness he wouldn't have been able to kick him in the nuts.
Paulie did have the legs, but Broner didn't have to all that **** he did to keep his balance. Should have had something deducted for all the nonsense that went on.
Manny Pacquiaos achievements whereas a small segment of boxing fans do nothing but try to write off what hes done as insignificant? To hear this small group tell it, Manny has done nothing special in his 18 years of professional fighting. Every achievement was apparently handed to him and set up for him to succeed.
:wave:
You just answered your own question, That small segment is the people that are Mayweather fanatics, or just trolling to stir up the Pac fanatics.
Manny is a great fighter, but just like Floyd he should be ridiculed for pick of opponents as well. It is overlooked; (especially on here) Pac was called out by P-Will, and Sergio but on here you only hear that Mayweather "ducked them. Nobody questions that he mostly if not only fights Top Rank guys, Pac doesn't get too much blame for the "Big Fight" not being made. (I personally blame Arum more than Pac in that 1 though)
With all that said you have to still appreciate what Pac has done.
Manny beat every common opponent better. No way Floyd is better achievement wise or career wise. He may have the better all around talent, but that means nothing when you're not using it against the best possible opposition or you'd agree that Canelo pummeling Lopez was one of the greatest performances of all time.
You can chime in here if you'd like.
http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=596241
Can't completely agree with you on that. Once they both got to that top level, their paths were VERY similiar. (I personally will put them about even)
You can play devil's advocate and pick your common opponent statement apart.
Floyd made JMM look like it was the first time he had ever boxed, where Manny went life and death with him, 3 times, and got KO'd the 4th time, Manny gets the nod with Cotto, and dammit i thought he KILLED Hatton lol
but he also fought Hatton almost a year after Floyd, the same with Oscar, and drained him to 145, when Floyd fought him at 154.
I respect your opinion, but i got em even
Your talking to a brick wall my friend. You got guys on hear naming any and everybody they can think of, when the only guy that Floyd really didn't want any part of is P-Will. Nobody want any part of a 6'2" WW at the time. All these guys conveniently leave out that P-Will called out Floyd and Pac, the same as Sergio did. All the guys that are Top Rank weren't gonna happen, and everyone knows this, and the to all the guys that haven't been watching boxing that long, that keep bringing up Mosley, I suggest you look at Mosley vs Vargas 2, in 2006 and watch alittle tap dancing by Mosley as Larry Merchant of all people presses the issue of why he won't fight Mayweather when Mayweather was calling him out.
It was some, but not too bad; i dont think he was too familiar with Prov ( like 1 poster mentioned he could even remember his name at the end of the fight)
Lampley had me laughing more trying to get anyone who would listen to agree about the 10-8 rounds.
Ruslan pull Bradley into a dog fight, Bradley had no choice but to fight Ruslan's fight for half of the whole fight, if Timmy had a choice he would box the exact way his corner told him to but he couldn't because he doesn't have the skill level to do so.
Roach got into Tim's head before the fight even started, with the "he's going to run again" talk. Combine that with all the $h!t he got from the Pac decision, Bradley was trying to prove something instead of fighting like he did in the middle rounds
Exactly! Maybe I overrated Bradley previously or maybe he isn't as good as I thought he was but I never thought he would do what someone like khan did against Garcia. I think he would learn from this fight mind you but I never thought he would be drawn in by Roach talking about him not running before the fight or him not adjusting the way I thought his skill level would have made him to, one thing though when he decided to box like his corner told him to then he wept found 3-10 on my card.
I was suprised myself, especially after Prov rocked him and he stayed and traded. Pride almost cost him his belt. if Prov had went to the body, i think he would have broke Tim's will to keep going after he had him dazed.
What do you guys think? Discuss.
Hard to say; I have watched the 1st round 3 times, and from the angle I cant see anything else landing after that big right that rocked Timmy. Looks like Prov pushes him down while Bradley is leaning over (and it didn't take much)
if the ref rules a KD does Tim take the full count, and get his wits and legs or does he try to get up and do the circus roll. Hard to say what happens, but that right blasted he hell outta him, but he did come back throwing and landing
All that TRT stuff is because they abused steroids in the past
And messed up their natural production process (supposedly)
The TS is missing the big picture of how B-Hop is beating these guys;
He is beating them with years of boxing IQ, not much wasted motion,
And when was the last time you ever seen him take a lot of punishment.
Besides if you workout your body creates testosterone well into later years,
And this guy is an "elite athlete"
Because he doesn't drink, smoke, eat meat, or take many supplements if any at all................insulting to insinuate otherwise tbh.
along with what he said, notice when B-hop fights he doesn't waste any motions, uses every trick in the book (old school boxing at it's finest) and he makes his opponent fight at a slower pace, less punch output, etc..
and all that criticism toward JMM came from Pac fans.
You know that's where Hopkins longevity comes from...his fighting style. Just and old school scrapper that knows how to slow the pace and make other fighters fight his style.
But what pisses me off is that it was not just the Pac fans that were slinging crap at Marquez it was the general media consensus. By their standards BHop should be PED suspect number 1 but everyone is mum.
not to get into a whole pac thing, but Pac has/had the same machine behind him that De la hoya had back in his day, people that should be unbiased let their personal opinions out; pac is a popular ; good fighter, and to see him face down shocked alot of people.
Mayweather looked pretty bad, well not near his usual impeccable best, against Cotto. He had a bloodied nose, he chose to fight on the ropes and the decision wasn't very far apart. Plus he is a year older now.
Guerrerro is in his prime, hasn't been in lots of wars like Cotto was before he fought Floyd. He looks very good at 147lbs, he might even weigh more than Floyd on fight night! He is in great form.
Do you think it would be wise to choose Guerrerro to win in a betting situation?
Hard to say; every fight is different, and we will see if he (Mayweather) fought Cotto the way he did on purpose or not. Guerrero has as good a chance as anyone else, especially if he can make it a ugly fight and not let May get his timing down. I might be throwing my money away but I'm putting a few bills on Ghost. This fight has a atmosphere of something crazy is gonna happen.
I gotta go with the fan man during Bowe/Holyfield
Oliver Mccall's breakdown/crying in the ring against Lennox
Zab Judah trying to choke the ref in the Tszyu fight
This is another thread confirming the strongly held and widely held opinion Floyd is a cherry picker.
He didnt perform that well at 154 so should stay at 147? I dont understand this way of thinking. Its like saying dont take any risks floyd if you want to keep your zero.
Im sure JMM fights better around 135 or 140 than 147, but its a case of challenging yourself and going places that are risky and out of your comfort zone, not staying in your comfort zone like Floyd has done all his career just about.
Floyd dont fight much, so its even more important he takes risky fights and serious challenges everytime he gets in the ring, rather than fight Pacs leftovers, but at 154, as if 154 is supposed to erase all critism for Floyd. Fighting Pacs leftovers but at 154?
Floyd lost out on FOTD with his do just as much as he can possibly get away with attitude, dont he and his fans learn>
If you look at it with a neutral position instead of pro-pac, you would notice 154 is not a good look for him, 147 and below is his best weight. I agree that the 0 is VERY important to Mayweather, and he happens to be in a position to fight who and whenever he wants, so we all can complain til hell freezes over. I personally will not pay for either Pac or May's ppv's after the fight could not be made. I am curious as to who you think are the cherry-picked fights were, and the only two people that Pac fought 1st were Cotto and JMM.
Its hard to say if he has a weak chin or not; anything can happen when 200+ pound men are throwing hands. Emmanuel Steward taught him how to fight tall behind that jab, so his chin doesn't get really tested that often to really know. I personal don't think the competition is all that good to really ever test it either. I don't think your chin changes, you can build up your neck to help, but your chin is your chin
again...He only fights at 154 when the opponent is past prime and shot! And holding a meaningless title belt despite how the got it!
He only fights at 147 when his opponents are moving up from LW or LWW!
Other than that he retires or goes to jail to avoid all the high risks!
only fought at 154 twice, Cotto and ODLH; now Cotto, I could slightly agree he is on the decline, shot not so much. ODLH was not hardly past his prime or shot, and if he was what does it say about your boy's win. He fought him at a catch weight and almost a year after, and wanted no part of Cotto at 154. He happens to hold the golden ticket along with Pac, that they can choose whom they want to fight at their preference.
Hatton and JMM did move up, but the $$$ dictated that just like all the guys that accepted the catchweight fights with PAC.