Fury's retirements and the lineal championship

[kafkod]

So to you fans are "anybody?" And legal issues define the entire scope of ethical actions? So I catch a serial predator doing a child and I kill him, the legal authority of the state is the only authority in force? No... Anybody with sense would know why the predator was killed, You have it a s s bacwards... Anybody with interests can be sanctioned by the authorites to act... with no real interest or knowledge of a champion, etc other than ulterior motives.

You conveniently avoid the basis for this legal authority because it does not exist beyond ulterior motives... It is the difference between a cop who gives you aticket to collect revenue and in the future a cop who geniunely wants for your safety and asks you nicely to slow down for the sake of your family... and you just do not get it because like so many others, you are brainwashed into believing anything sanctioned by the state is "real," and no other power, or authority exist...

Again, you are drawing extreme and completely false analogies.

Do you cheer when a US athlete or team wins Olympic gold?

If so why? What gives the IOC the right to decide who gets Olympic medals and who doesn't? What happened to "democracy" Why can't sports fans make those decisions for themselves?

Every organised sport under the sun is ruled and governed by officially appointed sanctioning organisations and athletic commissions. Why do you think boxing should be any different?

[kafkod]

Let's look at it another way. When the titles are fragmented, who is the Champion? Is it the WBC, WBO, IBF, WBA, IBA IBC, IBO? Anyone can claim a champion and charge them for that honor. Who decides who the champion is when this scenario plays out. This is why, in my opinion, the lineal title will always reign supreme.

Lineage, aka man-who-beat-the-man, only works if there is a clear, unbroken line connecting one title holder to the last undisputed champion,

And that title holder has got to be willing and ready to fight the other title holders to uphold their claim to be the one true champion. Otherwise, all the lineal does is give the guy who claims to hold it an excuse to avoid fighting the other title holders. How many times did we hear Tyson Fury and his dad explaining that Tyson didn't need to fight Usyk, because Tyson had the only title that mattered, the fabled lineal crown, and Usyk was just a belt holder?

Anything that gives title holders an excuse to not fight other title holders is bad for the sport and the fans. And, in the hands of greedy, unscrupulous guys like Fury, Warren and Arum, the imaginary lineal title can be, and was, used as an avoidance tool.

[Willie Pep 229]

History says the 'lineal champion' is the true champion, despite all its wa-rts.

Historically speaking the lineal title has held more prestige than any of the "real authority" claimants.

The Anthony Joahua situation.

Tyson Fury defeats Wald Klitschko and claims the lineal title plus several "real authority" but lesser belts.

Fury quits and is stripped of the various belts.

Fury returns and defeats Wilder, once again claiming the lineal title and a single "real authority" belt.

Fury is defeated by Usyk and loses the lineal title.

Meanwhile AJ fights consistently through this period and collects several "real authority" belts.

When it is all said and done the HW Champions will be listed as:

Lewis
W. Klitschko
Fury
Usyk

No room for AJ. He becomes just another claimant no more remembered than Berbick, Smith, or Tucker, etc.

The lineal title has always held more clout than the "real authority" straps, even when collected in bunches.

[billeau2]

Again, you are drawing extreme and completely false analogies.

Do you cheer when a US athlete or team wins Olympic gold?

If so why? What gives the IOC the right to decide who gets Olympic medals and who doesn't? What happened to "democracy" Why can't sports fans make those decisions for themselves?

Every organised sport under the sun is ruled and governed by officially appointed sanctioning organisations and athletic commissions. Why do you think boxing should be any different?

You say so but the proof says otherwise... The proof is YOU GOT THE DISTINCTION! That is after all what an analogy is for... You may disagree with it but you showed some understanding of what the analogy set to point out hen ce you are contradicting yourself because prior to, you seemed clueless.

So to you boxing cannot be different than other sports? Also, regulation is a relative term regarding other sports. In college and the Olympics regulation is all over the place... In baseball and football regulators do not determine who the champ is, a league is set up. All is relative to the sport. College teams cannot play each other so often regulators decide who the best is... Boxing is different, there should be no reason for regulators to decide on a champion when it can be decided. So there is a conflicting power base...

YOur just stuck in this infantile notion that without institutionalized authority no power over an activity can be exerted... Yes we need an official word but people have the right to demand the official word hold to standards.

Here is another analogy you no doubt will claim is false: In the Constitution of the United States of America fundamental to it is the notion of a balance of powers, so no one branch descends into an abuse of power... The Lineal functions as a balance as well. Whe n these alphabet agencies become so ridiculous fans can declare the lineal as the deciding factor... Of course fans and their ideations are also balanced by some of the more well respected belts... For example, when some alphabet says Manuel Charr is a "champion" fans can say otherwise... When fans say Jake Paul is the best middle weight the officials governing what makes a boxer official can counteract.

It amuses me how stubborn you are trying to maintain that the power of the fans declaring the champion is false because it does not come from an outside agency Ridiculous.

[billeau2]

History says the 'lineal champion' is the true champion, despite all its wa-rts.

Historically speaking the lineal title has held more prestige than any of the "real authority" claimants.

The Anthony Joahua situation.

Tyson Fury defeats Wald Klitschko and claims the lineal title plus several "real authority" but lesser belts.

Fury quits and is stripped of the various belts.

Fury returns and defeats Wilder, once again claiming the lineal title and a single "real authority" belt.

Fury is defeated by Usyk and loses the lineal title.

Meanwhile AJ fights consistently through this period and collects several "real authority" belts.

When it is all said and done the HW Champions will be listed as:

Lewis
W. Klitschko
Fury
Usyk

No room for AJ. He becomes just another claimant no more remembered than Berbick, Smith, or Tucker, etc.

The lineal title has always held more clout than the "real authority" straps, even when collected in bunches.

But kind sir! How can that be? No government official has decreed such!!

[billeau2]

Lineage, aka man-who-beat-the-man, only works if there is a clear, unbroken line connecting one title holder to the last undisputed champion,

And that title holder has got to be willing and ready to fight the other title holders to uphold their claim to be the one true champion. Otherwise, all the lineal does is give the guy who claims to hold it an excuse to avoid fighting the other title holders. How many times did we hear Tyson Fury and his dad explaining that Tyson didn't need to fight Usyk, because Tyson had the only title that mattered, the fabled lineal crown, and Usyk was just a belt holder?

Anything that gives title holders an excuse to not fight other title holders is bad for the sport and the fans. And, in the hands of greedy, unscrupulous guys like Fury, Warren and Arum, the imaginary lineal title can be, and was, used as an avoidance tool.

Wrong... Again wrong assumptions. The lineal can be temporarily unresolved... It has never caused a problem. It just gets resolved again...

Wrong... If anything the lineal is a drive, a need to fight the best available which contrary to most casual assumptions, Most fighters want to do! Fighters are not scared, they do not want to fight paper tigers, Most at least, they want to fight those that present the biggest challenge.

YOu once again reason illogically. You should be characterizing the lineal and holding Fury up to its standards rather than characterizing Fury (one fighter) and saying this is the nature of the lineal.

[kafkod]

But kind sir! How can that be? No government official has decreed such!!

Just a quick reminder, Bill. It was you who brought government authority into this discussion by comparing the lineal title to the US constitution.

[IronDanHamza]

I gave up on "Lineal" stuff a long time ago.

It used to be relatively easy (ish) to establish, now it's just too difficult to keep up with half the time and often defies logic.

People considered Manny Pacquaio "Lineal" Champion at Welterweight for beating Bradley in 2016 when Pacquaio was coming off a loss to Mayweather and Bradley wasn't even ranked #2 he was like #4 or something and was 1-1-1 or something in his last 3 fights so it made NO sense for that to be for a "new Lineage" yet people parrot it like it's true so yeah, I don't really see the point of it.

[kafkod]

History says the 'lineal champion' is the true champion, despite all its wa-rts.

Historically speaking the lineal title has held more prestige than any of the "real authority" claimants.

The Anthony Joahua situation.

Tyson Fury defeats Wald Klitschko and claims the lineal title plus several "real authority" but lesser belts.

Fury quits and is stripped of the various belts.

Fury returns and defeats Wilder, once again claiming the lineal title and a single "real authority" belt.

Fury is defeated by Usyk and loses the lineal title.

Meanwhile AJ fights consistently through this period and collects several "real authority" belts.

When it is all said and done the HW Champions will be listed as:

Lewis
W. Klitschko
Fury
Usyk

No room for AJ. He becomes just another claimant no more remembered than Berbick, Smith, or Tucker, etc.

The lineal title has always held more clout than the "real authority" straps, even when collected in bunches.

Only among history nerds at internet forums.

In the real world, boxers want to fight for real, universally recognised world titles, promoters want to stage those fights and fans want to watch them. Likewise, nobody but a handful of forum nerds recognised Fury as a legit world champion until he beat Wilder for the WBC strap.

Fury vs Usyk 1 broke the internet because it was the first undisputed HW title fight of the four belt era. That was how it was marketed, that was how fans perceived it, and that was why it was such a huge and important fight. The imaginary lineal title was irrelevant.

Usyk said he didn't even know what the lineal title was."Tyson Fury's bullshit" was how his promoter described it.

[kafkod]

It amuses me how stubborn you are trying to maintain that the power of the fans declaring the champion is false because it does not come from an outside agency Ridiculous.

What amuses me is that some people at this forum have somehow got the crazy idea that fans have the power to declare world champions into their heads.