Fury's retirements and the lineal championship

[billeau2]

I think what happened was that faceless boxing history nerds at independent rating sites like TBRB got their knickers in a twist after Lennox Lewis retired undefeated and started desperately scrabbling around to find themselves a new "lineal champion"

Who gave those faceless nerds the authority to do that? It certainly wasn't "the fans"

You are so a s s backwards on this concept!! The idea would be for other fans to weigh in, Fans are part of a democracy who can state their feelings about who the best fighter is, the lineal is one of the best tools to do so. Some people take it upon themselves to always have a lineal... So? Again, the sun came up this morning.

[billeau2]

Premise: common usage will trump hierarchical definitions everytime.

The Oxford Dictionary acknowledges the figurative use of 'lineal' as 'lineage.'

. . . [T]he Oxford English Dictionary (OED) does include figurative senses for lineal. (Common usages.) While its primary definition pertains to direct descent or succession, it also recognizes extended meanings. In a figurative sense, lineal can describe intellectual, cultural, or ideological inheritance, not just biological or linear descent.

While your argument is impeachable using the strict definition of the word lineal. Words change meaning as necessary and dictionaries slowly catch up. The OED sees the usage of lineal expanding and recognizes its impact on the language so it includes a definition and examples for the word's 'figurative' use.

Language (dictionary definition) always gives way to the desired communication. So as circumstances change, words change their meanings.

Take for example what is happening with the word 'literally' as we speak. What does a dictionary do with that word today?

Now about Boxing.

We do have an 'ideological' definition, called, the man who beat the man. While it has failed historicaly and not met the linear requirement, nor the strict definition of lineal, it has a popular embracement in boxing which is changing the definition of the word.

You're argument is solid but I believe your argument has lost the conversation. Its accepted figurative usage in boxing now dominates the conversation.

The question now is how is the word used in boxing.

Let's be frank, what is actually meant by the phrase is: the recognized champion. Obviously that means a popular (grass roots) consensus outside of the recognized authorities, e.g. sanctioning bodies.

All one can say in defense of prize fighting, we have not been frivolous with the term. It has always been earned, debated, challenged, to a serious degree.

But we have a 'lineal' champion simply because we say we do (and because we feel we need one). The dictionaries will catch up eventually.

P.S. If Homer Simpson can put "D'oh" in the OED (in 2001) because the populace keeps using it, the expansion of the definition of lineal will change easy-peasy.

Your dictionary definition argument will fade and their will be a lineal champion. Let's hope it maintains the integrity it has enjoyed.

When fighters would walk into a saloon and claim they could lick any man in the house, the lineal was established... We know that Sullivan did this, marciano as well... We can assume others did similar things. People put the cart before the horse... As long as kids play king of the hill we had the lineal. It is prelinguistic in a sense, an archetypical pattern that shows when people need a hierarchy.

As long as fighters compete, there will only be one way a lineal can be: and that is beating the best to become the best. The logic is infallible, and while it may cause a hiccup now and then through retirement, it has never given us a champion like Elon Musk... a paper man that takes the credit of others... The integrity of the lineal is not part of anything... It is in its entirety what the lineal is! For any man to be the people's champion, an offshoot of fighters respecting the vote of the fans, or the heavyweight people's champ, known to some as the lineal... one must beat the best! How can anyone call this imagined? It is the most immanent and real concept of the best there could be! People are brainwashed and would rather have the state tell them something nonsensical than respect their own power... marx was right about the consciousness that the state breeds...

[MalevolentBite]

Your reference to the ring belt explains why many fans believe there actually is such a thing as "the lineal title"

Back in the 2 belt era, Ring Magazine tried to solve the problem of having more than one world title holder in some divisions by using the man-who-beat-the-man method - aka lineages - to determine which of 2 rival belt holders should be recognised as the real world champ, and awarding their Ring title to that man. So, for a while, the Ring title was the lineal title.

Then 2 became 3, and 3 became 4. And champions started relinquishing belts to avoid mandos, and giving up one belt to fight for another, etc, etc. And Ring Magazine realised that the man-who-beat-the-man method just wasn't working any more. The picture was too complicated and subjective. So they announced that they were cutting the link between the Ring title and historical lineages.

It's important to note that the lineal championship is not an officially recognized title, and there are no belts or trophies involved.

lineal title" or "lineal champion" refers to the traditional, or "true" world championship, tracing a direct lineage of champions where each champion defeated the previous one in a match within the same weight class.

The Ring magazine belt used to be tied to the lineal belt, and the magazine was really respected before Golden Boy's buyout.

Historically, it was considered a prestigious title, representing the "man who beat the man" in a particular weight class.

[kafkod]

It's important to note that the lineal championship is not an officially recognized title, and there are no belts or trophies involved.

lineal title" or "lineal champion" refers to the traditional, or "true" world championship, tracing a direct lineage of champions where each champion defeated the previous one in a match within the same weight class.

The Ring magazine belt used to be tied to the lineal belt, and the magazine was really respected before Golden Boy's buyout.

Historically, it was considered a prestigious title, representing the "man who beat the man" in a particular weight class.

"It's important to note that the lineal championship is not an officially recognized title, and there are no belts or trophies involved"

Correct, that's the point I've been making throughout this thread. Back in the day, lineal champions were officially recognised by Ring Magazine, via the man-who-beat-the-man-method, and awarded championship belts to mark their lineal status. But during the 1980s, with 3 officially recognised sanctioning bodies all handing out their own championship belts, Ring Magazine decided it was no longer possible to keep track of championship lineages objectively, and the Ring Magazine lineal title was officially retired.

Ring Magazine started awarding title belts again about 20 years ago, but the present version of the Ring title belt is awarded via a merit based ranking system, like the alphabet belts, and Ring champions can be stripped of their belt if they don't defend it against top contenders on a regular basis. But despite this policy change, many fans still believe that the lineal title and the Ring title are one and the same thing.

[kafkod]

You are so a s s backwards on this concept!! The idea would be for other fans to weigh in, Fans are part of a democracy who can state their feelings about who the best fighter is, the lineal is one of the best tools to do so. Some people take it upon themselves to always have a lineal... So? Again, the sun came up this morning.

With respect, Bill, it's difficult to discuss this topic with you, when your idea of what a lineal champion actually is, and how a lineal title can be won and lost, seems to change with every comment you post!

Is the lineal champion a title holder who can trace his lineal status back into the mists of time via the man-who-beat-the-man method, or is he simply the consensus best in the division?

Can the lineal title only be won and lost in the ring, or can it be awarded and withdrawn by "fan democracy"?

And if the latter, then why, as a lifelong boxing fan, have I never been given a chance to cast my vote in a lineal championship election?

Edit: Maybe what you're saying is that lineages are not the be-all-and-end-all, but rather, just one method fans can use to reach a consensus on who the best man in the division actually is?

If so, that's fair enough. But you have to accept that, if that's what a lineal champion is, then lineal championship status is not totally objective or absolute. It's based partly on subjective opinion, and therefor open to debate.

[billeau2]

With respect, Bill, it's difficult to discuss this topic with you, when your idea of what a lineal champion actually is, and how a lineal title can be won and lost, seems to change with every comment you post!

Is the lineal champion a title holder who can trace his lineal status back into the mists of time via the man-who-beat-the-man method, or is he simply the consensus best in the division?

Can the lineal title only be won and lost in the ring, or can it be awarded and withdrawn by "fan democracy"?

And if the latter, then why, as a lifelong boxing fan, have I never been given a chance to cast my vote in a lineal championship election?

Edit: Maybe what you're saying is that lineages are not the be-all-and-end-all, but rather, just one method fans can use to reach a consensus on who the best man in the division actually is?

If so, that's fair enough. But you have to accept that, if that's what a lineal champion is, then lineal championship status is not totally objective or absolute. It's based partly on subjective opinion, and therefor open to debate.

Huh? What? My concept of the lineal has not changed one bit.

you are confusing how titles are sanctions and then attributing it to me.. I never gave any way any organized body could legitimize the lineal title. Never.. you are confusing titles that are granted from these organizations with the lineal. And do you know why you are doing that? Because like a lot of participants in a society based on having a state and Authority coming from that state it is hard for you to conceive of other types of authority.

if you were to have walked into my neighborhood when I was a kid and hung around you would have found out very quickly that a few guys you did not mess with. No State Authority had to give them a title. They could kick your butt! So it was known not to mess with them. Do you kind of understand where I'm going with this?

Put another way I really don't give a hooch what Ring magazine decided about the linear because it doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the fans to declare that the titles authority.

of course these things are open to debate. But it's very easy to resolve this debate isn't it? Fans don't really have to weigh in because usually the fans know who the strong Fighters are. There are no ulterior motives aside from being fans and yes of course, if you have great Fighters competing others will think some are better than others but all will agree that if one fighter beats the other and they are both considered the best the guy who won is better and will call him the lineal!

[billeau2]

"It's important to note that the lineal championship is not an officially recognized title, and there are no belts or trophies involved"

Correct, that's the point I've been making throughout this thread. Back in the day, lineal champions were officially recognised by Ring Magazine, via the man-who-beat-the-man-method, and awarded championship belts to mark their lineal status. But during the 1980s, with 3 officially recognised sanctioning bodies all handing out their own championship belts, Ring Magazine decided it was no longer possible to keep track of championship lineages objectively, and the Ring Magazine lineal title was officially retired.

Ring Magazine started awarding title belts again about 20 years ago, but the present version of the Ring title belt is awarded via a merit based ranking system, like the alphabet belts, and Ring champions can be stripped of their belt if they don't defend it against top contenders on a regular basis. But despite this policy change, many fans still believe that the lineal title and the Ring title are one and the same thing.

You need to really take some self-reflection on what the word official Authority implies to you. You you are not wrong but you are misled because in your mind the fact that a body of State sanctioned individuals with money and power and interests, can determine a ranking, holds more water than the fans who watch the fighters with no ulterior motives other than being fans, and their opinions.

the lineal is official as it has to be to represent the will of the fans. It is the same concept of populism that hears the expression the people's champion. I don't find this less official. On the contrary, I find it more authentic. And the fact that there is a mechanism to resolve the will of the people makes it beautiful and subtle.

If you read the Constitution of the United States of America and compare it in its scope tone and other such things to other political documents it's actually a very basic document. The beauty is in the simplicity. That has to do with the mechanism for action. It is easy to work with. The linear is the same concept. In order for things to remain somewhat objective decreed

[Willie Pep 229]

Huh? What? My concept of the lineal has not changed one bit.

you are confusing how titles are sanctions and then attributing it to me.. I never gave any way any organized body could legitimize the lineal title. Never.. you are confusing titles that are granted from these organizations with the lineal. And do you know why you are doing that? Because like a lot of participants in a society based on having a state and Authority coming from that state it is hard for you to conceive of other types of authority.

if you were to have walked into my neighborhood when I was a kid and hung around you would have found out very quickly that a few guys you did not mess with. No State Authority had to give them a title. They could kick your butt! So it was known not to mess with them. Do you kind of understand where I'm going with this?

Put another way I really don't give a hooch what Ring magazine decided about the linear because it doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the fans to declare that the titles authority.

of course these things are open to debate. But it's very easy to resolve this debate isn't it? Fans don't really have to weigh in because usually the fans know who the strong Fighters are. There are no ulterior motives aside from being fans and yes of course, if you have great Fighters competing others will think some are better than others but all will agree that if one fighter beats the other and they are both considered the best the guy who won is better and will call him the lineal!

What happen with The Ring Magazine was telling.

First they tried to return to the original eight weight classes with lineal champions only.

That didn't have a chance of working.

Then they expanded to 16 weight classes but still with only lineal champions recognized.

They ended up with maybe 6 of the 16 champions being recognized (I just made that number up, but it was something that absurd.) with the rest of the titles listed as vacant.

Finally realizing that wouldn't work they created their own criteria for a Ring belt and without realizing it, became just another mere (weak) sanctioning body.

They might have not bothered trying.

[kafkod]

You need to really take some self-reflection on what the word official Authority implies to you. You you are not wrong but you are misled because in your mind the fact that a body of State sanctioned individuals with money and power and interests, can determine a ranking, holds more water than the fans who watch the fighters with no ulterior motives other than being fans, and their opinions.

the lineal is official as it has to be to represent the will of the fans. It is the same concept of populism that hears the expression the people's champion. I don't find this less official. On the contrary, I find it more authentic. And the fact that there is a mechanism to resolve the will of the people makes it beautiful and subtle.

If you read the Constitution of the United States of America and compare it in its scope tone and other such things to other political documents it's actually a very basic document. The beauty is in the simplicity. That has to do with the mechanism for action. It is easy to work with. The linear is the same concept. In order for things to remain somewhat objective decreed

The US constitution is in no way comparable to the linear (whatever you mean that means to you). The US government have the power to enforce constitutional law upon everybody in the US, whether they agree with it or not. That's what official authority means. It's not difficult to understand.

In the case of sanctioning bodies, they have the legal right to award their championship belts to whoever they like, as long as they follow their own published rules. And if they do follow those rules, then nobody has the legal right to say that an officially sanctioned title holder is not an officially sanctioned title holder. Again, that's what official authority means. It's not a matter of opinion that Daniel Dubois is the IBF world title holder, it's a matter of fact.

[billeau2]

What happen with The Ring Magazine was telling.

First they tried to return to the original eight weight classes with lineal champions only.

That didn't have a chance of working.

Then they expanded to 16 weight classes but still with only lineal champions recognized.

They ended up with maybe 6 of the 16 champions being recognized (I just made that number up, but it was something that absurd.) with the rest of the titles listed as vacant.

Finally realizing that wouldn't work they created their own criteria for a Ring belt and without realizing it, became just another mere (weak) sanctioning body.

They might have not bothered trying.

They may have done so unintentionally but in essence they were trying to coopt something they had no business messing with. They tried to define the lineal and make it an institution of a different nature entirely. Ring cannot escape the subjective nature it rests upon. The lineal is based on direct immanent actions... More akin to a school yard than a magazine, or organization given authority transcendently (from another as opposed to directly vis a vis immanently).