Fury's retirements and the lineal championship

[Willie Pep 229]

Over thought? Definitely.

Simple and elegant. Definitely not!

Here's why: "The lineal comes up and asks: Who beat the best to become the best?"

Wlad Klitschko, According to the people who awarded him that "title", became the lineal champion by beating Ruslan Chagaev. Did anybody seriously rate Chagaev as "the best" when Wlad beat him?

And to complicate the issue even more, most fans considered Vitali, not Wlad, to be the best heavyweight in the world at that time.

The truth is that, while there is such a thing as the lineage of HW champions - which is simply the historical record of who beat who, and when - there is no such thing as the lineal title. It is a chimaera.

Premise: common usage will trump hierarchical definitions everytime.

The Oxford Dictionary acknowledges the figurative use of 'lineal' as 'lineage.'

. . . [T]he Oxford English Dictionary (OED) does include figurative senses for lineal. (Common usages.) While its primary definition pertains to direct descent or succession, it also recognizes extended meanings. In a figurative sense, lineal can describe intellectual, cultural, or ideological inheritance, not just biological or linear descent.

While your argument is impeachable using the strict definition of the word lineal. Words change meaning as necessary and dictionaries slowly catch up. The OED sees the usage of lineal expanding and recognizes its impact on the language so it includes a definition and examples for the word's 'figurative' use.

Language (dictionary definition) always gives way to the desired communication. So as circumstances change, words change their meanings.

Take for example what is happening with the word 'literally' as we speak. What does a dictionary do with that word today?

Now about Boxing.

We do have an 'ideological' definition, called, the man who beat the man. While it has failed historicaly and not met the linear requirement, nor the strict definition of lineal, it has a popular embracement in boxing which is changing the definition of the word.

You're argument is solid but I believe your argument has lost the conversation. Its accepted figurative usage in boxing now dominates the conversation.

The question now is how is the word used in boxing.

Let's be frank, what is actually meant by the phrase is: the recognized champion. Obviously that means a popular (grass roots) consensus outside of the recognized authorities, e.g. sanctioning bodies.

All one can say in defense of prize fighting, we have not been frivolous with the term. It has always been earned, debated, challenged, to a serious degree.

But we have a 'lineal' champion simply because we say we do (and because we feel we need one). The dictionaries will catch up eventually.

P.S. If Homer Simpson can put "D'oh" in the OED (in 2001) because the populace keeps using it, the expansion of the definition of lineal will change easy-peasy.

Your dictionary definition argument will fade and their will be a lineal champion. Let's hope it maintains the integrity it has enjoyed.

[QueensburyRules]

I don't know.

I just know that boxers are constantly retiring & unretiring on social media & nobody takes it seriously.

- - Blubber didn't take his career seriously after he fraudulently won his title, but Ring did which is the reason Turki bought them out...

[kafkod]

Premise: common usage will trump hierarchical definitions everytime.

The Oxford Dictionary acknowledges the figurative use of 'lineal' as 'lineage.'

. . . [T]he Oxford English Dictionary (OED) does include figurative senses for lineal. (Common usages.) While its primary definition pertains to direct descent or succession, it also recognizes extended meanings. In a figurative sense, lineal can describe intellectual, cultural, or ideological inheritance, not just biological or linear descent.

While your argument is impeachable using the strict definition of the word lineal. Words change meaning as necessary and dictionaries slowly catch up. The OED sees the usage of lineal expanding and recognizes its impact on the language so it includes a definition and examples for the word's 'figurative' use.

Language (dictionary definition) always gives way to the desired communication. So as circumstances change, words change their meanings.

Take for example what is happening with the word 'literally' as we speak. What does a dictionary do with that word today?

Now about Boxing.

We do have an 'ideological' definition, called, the man who beat the man. While it has failed historicaly and not met the linear requirement, nor the strict definition of lineal, it has a popular embracement in boxing which is changing the definition of the word.

You're argument is solid but I believe your argument has lost the conversation. Its accepted figurative usage in boxing now dominates the conversation.

The question now is how is the word used in boxing.

Let's be frank, what is actually meant by the phrase is: the recognized champion. Obviously that means a popular (grass roots) consensus outside of the recognized authorities, e.g. sanctioning bodies.

All one can say in defense of prize fighting, we have not been frivolous with the term. It has always been earned, debated, challenged, to a serious degree.

But we have a 'lineal' champion simply because we say we do (and because we feel we need one). The dictionaries will catch up eventually.

P.S. If Homer Simpson can put "D'oh" in the OED (in 2001) because the populace keeps using it, the expansion of the definition of lineal will change easy-peasy.

Your dictionary definition argument will fade and their will be a lineal champion. Let's hope it maintains the integrity it has enjoyed.

I wasn't using a dictionary definition argument. I was trying to highlight how some boxing fans confuse the historical record of previous champions - known as "the lineage" - with an actual title - which they call "the lineal title".

There is no objective way to judge the merits of the various belt holders other than looking at their records and noting who they fought and who they beat. Nothing wrong with that at all.

But there is a huge difference between saying, e.g.: Wlad Klitschko was the recognised champion, and Tyson Fury beat him, so that made Fury the recognised champion.

And: Wlad Klitschko was the lineal title holder, and Fury beat him, so that made Fury the lineal title holder. And because the lineal title exists and it can only be won and lost in the ring, Fury was still the lineal title holder when he came back from 2 years retirement, with no belts. And Fury's fights against Sefer Seferi, Francesco Pianeta, and Tom Scharz were "lineal world title fights"

[kafkod]

What a superb post.

I have always liked Fury, what you see is what you get, no carefully crafted public image for him (Joshua).

There was a superb documentary series on him and his family on ITV just before the second Wilder fight.

He and Paris came across really well, I always remember that troubled teen lad he reached out to.

Plus he gave us so many great moments, Batman, the Resurrection, the ring entrance to White etc.

People trash him now but at his best he was a nightmare for any fighter who ever lived.

Oh and how many heavies were never stopped in their career?

Very few.

I've given Fury a lot of criticism over the last 3 years. And I think he deserved it. But I have to say,he has given me a lot of laughs and excitement. And his victory over Wlad, and the way he "rose from the dead" in the 12th round of his first fight with Wilder, are memories that will stay in my mind till the day I die.

[MalevolentBite]

Is that ever a thing for a fighter?

Boxers must renew their licenses annually to remain eligible to compete In America and If a boxing license expires, a boxer is no longer permitted to compete in professional boxing events and the boxer's contractual relationships with managers become void.

[MalevolentBite]

Lets be honest. During his "retirement/ mental breakdown/ drug problem " no other champion emerge who had any potienal to claim the ring belt. Since deontay and AJ never fought for undisputed there was no concensus who was the #1 guy at that time. Fury was the best when he won the lineal, the best when he was retired and the best when he returned until he wasnt.

Now if AJ or Deontay had all four belts and the vacant ring at that time then you could make an argument that fighter could had been the lineal when tyson went crazy. I always felt tyson was always coming back and still believed he was lineal the whole time until he wasn't. It's case by case.

[kafkod]

Lets be honest. During his "retirement/ mental breakdown/ drug problem " no other champion emerge who had any potienal to claim the ring belt. Since deontay and AJ never fought for undisputed there was no concensus who was the #1 guy at that time. Fury was the best when he won the lineal, the best when he was retired and the best when he returned until he wasnt.

Now if AJ or Deontay had all four belts and the vacant ring at that time then you could make an argument that fighter could had been the lineal when tyson went crazy. I always felt tyson was always coming back and still believed he was lineal the whole time until he wasn't. It's case by case.

Your reference to the ring belt explains why many fans believe there actually is such a thing as "the lineal title"

Back in the 2 belt era, Ring Magazine tried to solve the problem of having more than one world title holder in some divisions by using the man-who-beat-the-man method - aka lineages - to determine which of 2 rival belt holders should be recognised as the real world champ, and awarding their Ring title to that man. So, for a while, the Ring title was the lineal title.

Then 2 became 3, and 3 became 4. And champions started relinquishing belts to avoid mandos, and giving up one belt to fight for another, etc, etc. And Ring Magazine realised that the man-who-beat-the-man method just wasn't working any more. The picture was too complicated and subjective. So they announced that they were cutting the link between the Ring title and historical lineages.

[kafkod]

Some people don't acknowledge the Chagaev fight as the point where Wlad became lineal. Some say it was the Sultan Ibragimov fight, some say it was the Povetkin fight.

But the point is everyone acknowledges that Wladimir Klitschko became lineal at some point during his reign, then lost to Fury.

I think what happened was that faceless boxing history nerds at independent rating sites like TBRB got their knickers in a twist after Lennox Lewis retired undefeated and started desperately scrabbling around to find themselves a new "lineal champion"

Who gave those faceless nerds the authority to do that? It certainly wasn't "the fans"

[kafkod]

Look at the bolded: You just described and did so perfectly, why the lineal works. Chagaev was simply not the best... And it is, as you state, obvious...

Did most fans consider Vitalie the best? I don't think so. It was debatable. Still is. A chimera has many heads, look it up. The lineal is simple, it has one head, one concrete anchor. And sometimes it is not needed. It works especially well when the alphabets try to put lipstick on pigs. Did anyone need the lineal to confirm Lennox Lewis was the champ?

Finally, you are confusing what Fans debate with a mechanism for asserting whom the de facto champion is. We can argue that Moses Ituama is so insanely talented that he is better than Usyk... Does not mean he has a claim to the throne. Vitalie being "better" than his brother is a different issue than who can assert championship status.

A chimaera is a mythical beast comprised of body parts of various real, existing animals.

Which animals and which body parts? Depends which version of a chimaera you are looking at. That's why a chimaera is an excellent metaphor for the lineal title. Especially the mythical part.

The reason why Moses Ituama has no claim to "the throne", no matter how talented he appears to be, is that Moses has never won any version of a recognised world title. You may not approve them, but recognised world titles matter.

And btw way, Vitaly was definitely rated as better than his brother by most fans and "experts" when he held the WBC title. I remember those days well.

[billeau2]

A chimaera is a mythical beast comprised of body parts of various real, existing animals.

Which animals and which body parts? Depends which version of a chimaera you are looking at. That's why a chimaera is an excellent metaphor for the lineal title. Especially the mythical part.

The reason why Moses Ituama has no claim to "the throne", no matter how talented he appears to be, is that Moses has never won any version of a recognised world title. You may not approve them, but recognised world titles matter.

And btw way, Vitaly was definitely rated as better than his brother by most fans and "experts" when he held the WBC title. I remember those days well.

Yes "compised of many parts" The :mythical aspect is predicated, not essential to the concept, which you outlined... The idea is one of confusion and nothing could be more clear than the lineal so in fact, it is a very bad analogy. Recognized world titles are not good, or bad, not to be loved (like so many here do) or hated... they are simply a different form of authority. Something you really should understand. If I am a "father" and I come home and chastise my kids, this is nothing revolutionary... If I go into work the next day and chastise my co worker, or boss, using the same approach... Does not fly. Each situation has its own power dynamics. My authority at home to raise my kids up is just as important, but very different, than my authority as a co-worker... even if I am well intentioned. DIFFERENT entirely...

There is no way to establish that Vitalie was held in higher regard... But even if he was, so? Again, THINK!!! Why do people assume that when there is a conflict, something unresolved, that this is bad? if fans felt this way it should set up a situation where the best fight the best... If they cannot fight (they were brothers) so? then that matter remains unresolved, until it is resolved... What is the big deal? A lot of you guys would rather have some alphabet crown a chump and call it a champ! Than let the issue resolve properly. When the lineal remains unresolved for a period, or is not needed, because the best fighter is considered the best... Life goes on! we still function, the sun comes up...