Fury's retirements and the lineal championship

[kafkod]

I gave up on "Lineal" stuff a long time ago.

It used to be relatively easy (ish) to establish, now it's just too difficult to keep up with half the time and often defies logic.

People considered Manny Pacquaio "Lineal" Champion at Welterweight for beating Bradley in 2016 when Pacquaio was coming off a loss to Mayweather and Bradley wasn't even ranked #2 he was like #4 or something and was 1-1-1 or something in his last 3 fights so it made NO sense for that to be for a "new Lineage" yet people parrot it like it's true so yeah, I don't really see the point of it.

"I gave up on "Lineal" stuff a long time ago" So did Ring Magazine. They realised it was unworkable back in the 3 belt era. Even more so now.

[Willie Pep 229]

But kind sir! How can that be? No government official has decreed such!!

We always choose order over law.

The law is created as a tool to create and empower the desired order of things. When the law fails to achieve this desired order it is cast aside.

The 'sanctioning body' system failed to answer the question, i.e. Who is the HW Champion of the World? So the populace has consistently cast aside the "real authority" and created its own answer. The much maligned "lineal" title.

Until a single authority can create a consensus, the lineal champion will remain the historically recognized champion. (With all its weaknesses.)

[kafkod]

We always choose order over law.

The law is created as a tool to create and empower the desired order of things. When the law fails to achieve this desired order it is cast aside.

The 'sanctioning body' system failed to answer the question, i.e. Who is the HW Champion of the World? So the populace has consistently cast aside the "real authority" and created its own answer. The much maligned "lineal" title.

Until a single authority can create a consensus, the lineal champion will remain the historically recognized champion. (With all its weaknesses.)

Only boxing history buffs care about lineal titles. 99.99% of "the populace" don't even know what a lineal title is supposed to be.

[Willie Pep 229]

Only among history nerds at internet forums.

In the real world, boxers want to fight for real, universally recognised world titles, promoters want to stage those fights and fans want to watch them. Likewise, nobody but a handful of forum nerds recognised Fury as a legit world champion until he beat Wilder for the WBC strap.

Fury vs Usyk 1 broke the internet because it was the first undisputed HW title fight of the four belt era. That was how it was marketed, that was how fans perceived it, and that was why it was such a huge and important fight. The imaginary lineal title was irrelevant.

Usyk said he didn't even know what the lineal title was."Tyson Fury's bullshit" was how his promoter described it.

The four belts meant nothing. That fight goes mega without a single belt on the table.

Usyk got the fight with Fury because he beat AJ.

It had nothing to do with sanctioning belts.

Everyone saw Fury as champion and AJ as the next great fight. Usyk beat AJ and stole the opportunity.

History will bare me out.

Lewis
W. Klitschko
Fury
Usyk

The rest is just marketimg and promotion that won't carry into the future.

TV just can't bare to televise (under any of its mediums) a non-title fight. So every fight has a strap assoicated to it. But they don't really matter to the fans. It's fan anticipation that makes a fight great.

Do you care if Canelo and Crawford meet for a title, or do you just want them to meet?

(Don't worry the promoters and sanctioning bodies will create one for you to embrace.)

But answer honestly. If this fight is made without a single SB title on the line, (never mind four belts) would you pay to watch it? Would you considered it a championship fight?

I sure as hell will.

You are correct. History geeks are the ones who see through the immediate promotional BS and know what will eventually be called the truth.

AJ will never be remembered as the HW Champion.

P.S. History geeks will also argue, it's because Fury ducked him.

[JAB5239]

Lineage, aka man-who-beat-the-man, only works if there is a clear, unbroken line connecting one title holder to the last undisputed champion,

And that title holder has got to be willing and ready to fight the other title holders to uphold their claim to be the one true champion. Otherwise, all the lineal does is give the guy who claims to hold it an excuse to avoid fighting the other title holders. How many times did we hear Tyson Fury and his dad explaining that Tyson didn't need to fight Usyk, because Tyson had the only title that mattered, the fabled lineal crown, and Usyk was just a belt holder?

Anything that gives title holders an excuse to not fight other title holders is bad for the sport and the fans. And, in the hands of greedy, unscrupulous guys like Fury, Warren and Arum, the imaginary lineal title can be, and was, used as an avoidance tool.

Lennox Lewis dropped belts to fighter more qualified and highly ranked fighter. Instead of Ruiz who was ranked like 8th by Ring magazine and the WBA champion, he fought Grant who was number one and seen as the heir apparent to Lewis at that time. That is what lineal is about. Belts don't make a champion, a champion make the title.

[Willie Pep 229]

What if . . .

What if we had a federal body controlling all prize fights in the USA?

It would have the sole legal authority to sanction all fightS and denote all champions. Foreign fighters welcomed but so regulated.

1. How would the international community react?

2. Would we always have a US "world" Champion and various international champions to argue over.

3. Would it drive the current sanctioning bodies over the border, by law or by ecomonics (as they can not sanction a prize fight)?

4. Would the USA Champion become the de facto 'world champion'?

5. Would USA Champions still take fights outside of the States; would the federal authority recognize those fights?

Ah! Just leave it as it is . . . Boxing will never work as a truly regulated game, it needs to remain obtuse. It is not a sport.

[max baer]

Lennox Lewis dropped belts to fighter more qualified and highly ranked fighter. Instead of Ruiz who was ranked like 8th by Ring magazine and the WBA champion, he fought Grant who was number one and seen as the heir apparent to Lewis at that time. That is what lineal is about. Belts don't make a champion, a champion make the title.

Does anyone know how Ring magazine rank boxers? Is it down to more than one journalist?
Is it based on a mathematical equation that applies to all champions or is it just opinion made by boxing enthusiasts at the magazine offices?
I would love to know as so many people use their rankings and respect Ring's rankings.

[JAB5239]

Does anyone know how Ring magazine rank boxers? Is it down to more than one journalist?
Is it based on a mathematical equation that applies to all champions or is it just opinion made by boxing enthusiasts at the magazine offices?
I would love to know as so many people use their rankings and respect Ring's rankings.

I believe their writes vote, but I'm not completely sure. I would submit using the Transnational boxing rankings. All the people are volunteers for the love of the sport. This is how the determine a champion.

The Transnational Boxing Rankings Board Championship Policy
I. When a champion retires or abdicates, the first-ranked contender must fight the second-ranked contender to become champion. Lesser contenders do not constitute the best, and the fact that they are allowed to compete for open championships by other organizations does not make them so. The gravitas of the true championship will be vitiated no longer. Therefore, no allowances for third, fourth, and fifth-ranked contenders will be made.

II. If, under such circumstances, the first two ranked contenders prove unwilling to fight, the Board will force the issue as much as it deems appropriate.

III. If a champion is inactive in his division, attempts will be made to contact the champion/designee for an official announcement or clarification of his intentions. If none is forthcoming and the champion has not defended his throne after 18 months, and the first- and second-ranked contenders meet, then the official winner may become the rightful successor. If a champion has not defended his throne before 36 months have elapsed, it may be considered abandoned and thus abdicated.

[kafkod]

The four belts meant nothing. That fight goes mega without a single belt on the table.

Usyk got the fight with Fury because he beat AJ.

It had nothing to do with sanctioning belts.

Everyone saw Fury as champion and AJ as the next great fight. Usyk beat AJ and stole the opportunity.

History will bare me out.

Lewis
W. Klitschko
Fury
Usyk

The rest is just marketimg and promotion that won't carry into the future.

TV just can't bare to televise (under any of its mediums) a non-title fight. So every fight has a strap assoicated to it. But they don't really matter to the fans. It's fan anticipation that makes a fight great.

Do you care if Canelo and Crawford meet for a title, or do you just want them to meet?

(Don't worry the promoters and sanctioning bodies will create one for you to embrace.)

But answer honestly. If this fight is made without a single SB title on the line, (never mind four belts) would you pay to watch it? Would you considered it a championship fight?

I sure as hell will.

You are correct. History geeks are the ones who see through the immediate promotional BS and know what will eventually be called the truth.

AJ will never be remembered as the HW Champion.

P.S. History geeks will also argue, it's because Fury ducked him.

So in your world, the WBO mandatory order that forced AJ to fight Usyk, and ended with Usyk winning all 3 of AJ's belts, really had nothing to do with a WBO mandatory defence. And the the 2 other belts on the line in the Usyk/AJ fights were also irrelevant. Both those fights were really nothing but final eliminators for Fury's imaginary lineal title. Even though nobody involved in them knew anything about that at the time.

Likewise, the historic 4 belt unification fight between Usyk and Fury really had nothing to do with the 4 belts Usyk thought he was fighting for. It was all about the imaginary lineal again. Even though, when he was asked how much becoming lineal champion meant to him after the fight, Usyk said he didn't care whether people called him the lineal champion or not, because the lineal title was nothing but Tyson Fury's bullshit.

Ok. Well, you carry on living in your world, I'm going back to reality now.

[kafkod]

Lennox Lewis dropped belts to fighter more qualified and highly ranked fighter. Instead of Ruiz who was ranked like 8th by Ring magazine and the WBA champion, he fought Grant who was number one and seen as the heir apparent to Lewis at that time. That is what lineal is about. Belts don't make a champion, a champion make the title.

What you're talking about here is actually nothing but the tried and tested method of rating a fighter according to titles won and opponents beaten. Lewis made boxing history by becoming the first, and only, unified champion of the 3 belt era. He then destroyed Grant, the man perceived to be the biggest threat to him at the time, and went on to also KO Mike Tyson, whose name still meant a lot.

Of course, Lennox couldn't have accomplished all those things without also becoming the lineal champion. But that was just incidental to his other accomplishments. it wasn't becoming a lineal champion that made Lewis into an ATG.