Fury's retirements and the lineal championship

[kafkod]

Does anyone know how Ring magazine rank boxers? Is it down to more than one journalist?
Is it based on a mathematical equation that applies to all champions or is it just opinion made by boxing enthusiasts at the magazine offices?
I would love to know as so many people use their rankings and respect Ring's rankings.

They have a ratings panel. Or at least they did, before Turki bought them.

[Willie Pep 229]

So in your world, the WBO mandatory order that forced AJ to fight Usyk, and ended with Usyk winning all 3 of AJ's belts, really had nothing to do with a WBO mandatory defence. And the the 2 other belts on the line in the Usyk/AJ fights were also irrelevant. Both those fights were really nothing but final eliminators for Fury's imaginary lineal title. Even though nobody involved in them knew anything about that at the time.

Likewise, the historic 4 belt unification fight between Usyk and Fury really had nothing to do with the 4 belts Usyk thought he was fighting for. It was all about the imaginary lineal again. Even though, when he was asked how much becoming lineal champion meant to him after the fight, Usyk said he didn't care whether people called him the lineal champion or not, because the lineal title was nothing but Tyson Fury's bullshit.

Ok. Well, you carry on living in your world, I'm going back to reality now.

Right!

Think of the belts as a manner to position yourself into position for a title shot.

The key factor was that AJ had fought his way to the top of the pile, that was noted by his belt collection.

Everyone was then clamering for AJ-Fury at that point.

Why the WBO wanted AJ to fight Uysk is one of those things only sanctioning bodies actually know. They probably wanted one more big sanctioning fee before AJ lost to Fury (maybe) and then got shut out of the title.

Sanctioning bodies always have to worry someone is going to steal their meal ticket, sometimes even fighters just publicly dumping their belts in the trash can. Fury was that type of guy

Uysk then beats AJ twice and steals his shot at Fury.

In the end all AJ's belts got him was a rematch with Uysk.

As far as Uysk's quote regarding the lineal title:

1. He is the guy with the belts so why would he bad mouth them?

2. Lets see what he says after he falls-out with one or all of them.

3. Never believe what a fighter says. He is always part promoter.

P.S. Don't resort to personal insults. We have too much of that on here already. We are having a good argument. There is nothing important enough here worth getting rude over.

[JAB5239]

What you're talking about here is actually nothing but the tried and tested method of rating a fighter according to titles won and opponents beaten. Lewis made boxing history by becoming the first, and only, unified champion of the 3 belt era. He then destroyed Grant, the man perceived to be the biggest threat to him at the time, and went on to also KO Mike Tyson, whose name still meant a lot.

Of course, Lennox couldn't have accomplished all those things without also becoming the lineal champion. But that was just incidental to his other accomplishments. it wasn't becoming a lineal champion that made Lewis into an ATG.

No, that's incorrect. What I'm talking about is becoming lineal by beating the man who beat the man. Belts are irrelevant. If the WBA belt mattered so much than why wouldn't Lewis have fought Ruiz instead of Grant? Simple answer....despite giving up the belt everyone knew Grant was the biggest threat. You say Lennox would have accomplished these things without being lineal, yet he was lineal. Had he fought the same fighters at the same time with no belts on the line his resume would still show his greatness, not a shiny trinket he had to pay for in order to gain the right to fight for it in the first place.

[kafkod]

No, that's incorrect. What I'm talking about is becoming lineal by beating the man who beat the man. Belts are irrelevant. If the WBA belt mattered so much than why wouldn't Lewis have fought Ruiz instead of Grant? Simple answer....despite giving up the belt everyone knew Grant was the biggest threat. You say Lennox would have accomplished these things without being lineal, yet he was lineal. Had he fought the same fighters at the same time with no belts on the line his resume would still show his greatness, not a shiny trinket he had to pay for in order to gain the right to fight for it in the first place.

This makes no sense. It's like your reasoning is back to front, putting the cart before the horse. How does anybody know who the best fighters are in any division?

Answer: The best fighters are the the ones who win title belts, or beat guys who have won eliminators and title belts. And fighters become lineal champions by winning title belts, not the other way round!

Some fighters - like Manny, Floyd, Canelo - become "bigger than the belts" But not without first winning and defending belts. And how big a fighter becomes is determined by drawing power, not lineal titles.

"not a shiny trinket he had to pay for in order to gain the right to fight for it in the first place."

Have you ever wondered why fighters and promoters compete so hard for the right to pay to fight for those "trinkets"?

[kafkod]

Right!

Think of the belts as a manner to position yourself into position for a title shot.

The key factor was that AJ had fought his way to the top of the pile, that was noted by his belt collection.

Everyone was then clamering for AJ-Fury at that point.

Why the WBO wanted AJ to fight Uysk is one of those things only sanctioning bodies actually know. They probably wanted one more big sanctioning fee before AJ lost to Fury (maybe) and then got shut out of the title.

Sanctioning bodies always have to worry someone is going to steal their meal ticket, sometimes even fighters just publicly dumping their belts in the trash can. Fury was that type of guy

Uysk then beats AJ twice and steals his shot at Fury.

In the end all AJ's belts got him w
Think of the belts as a manner to position yourself into position for a title shot.
as a rematch with Uysk.

As far as Uysk's quote regarding the lineal title:

1. He is the guy with the belts so why would he bad mouth them?

2. Lets see what he says after he falls-out with one or all of them.

3. Never believe what a fighter says. He is always part promoter.

P.S. Don't resort to personal insults. We have too much of that on here already. We are having a good argument. There is nothing important enough here worth getting rude over.

"Think of the belts as a manner to position yourself into position for a title shot."

The problem you have there is that Usyk specifically said, on multiple occasions, that his goal was to win all the belts and become the unified champion. And he also said that becoming lineal champion meant nothing to him.

I haven't resorted to any insults!

[JAB5239]

This makes no sense. It's like your reasoning is back to front, putting the cart before the horse. How does anybody know who the best fighters are in any division?

Answer: The best fighters are the the ones who win title belts, or beat guys who have won eliminators and title belts. And fighters become lineal champions by winning title belts, not the other way round!

Some fighters - like Manny, Floyd, Canelo - become "bigger than the belts" But not without first winning and defending belts. And how big a fighter becomes is determined by drawing power, not lineal titles.

"not a shiny trinket he had to pay for in order to gain the right to fight for it in the first place."

Have you ever wondered why fighters and promoters compete so hard for the right to pay to fight for those "trinkets"?

Wrong again. Belts can be stripped away for a variety of reasons. Let's say Usyk has all his belts stripped, but continues fighting top fighters with no trinket at stake. Are you saying he is no longer the heavyweight champion? That makes no sense whatsoever.

[kafkod]

Wrong again. Belts can be stripped away for a variety of reasons. Let's say Usyk has all his belts stripped, but continues fighting top fighters with no trinket at stake. Are you saying he is no longer the heavyweight champion? That makes no sense whatsoever.

Cart before the horse again. If Usyk hadn't won the belts, nobody would have been calling him the heavyweight champion in the first place!

The man has said, out of his own mouth, that being lineal champion means nothing to him. Who are you to say any different?

[Willie Pep 229]

Cart before the horse again. If Usyk hadn't won the belts, nobody would have been calling him the heavyweight champion in the first place!

The man has said, out of his own mouth, that being lineal champion means nothing to him. Who are you to say any different?

Re Bold: Isn't that exactly what I said about "positioning" himself?

Still wanted the Fury fight, didn't he?

Without the Fury fight he wouldn't be called champion today. Just another AJ with multiple belts.

[EDIT] Speaking of quoting fighters. Mike Tyson said, he knew he had to beat M. Spinks before it would all be settled.

The "undisputed" crap was for HBO and the casuals. Tyson was a fight fan as well as a fighter and he knew he needed to take down Spinks and said it.

Which fight got Tyson the biggest payday? Berbick, Tucker, or Smith? Correct answer: M. Spinks. Why? Because he was the lineal champion.

[Willie Pep 229]

Wrong again. Belts can be stripped away for a variety of reasons. Let's say Usyk has all his belts stripped, but continues fighting top fighters with no trinket at stake. Are you saying he is no longer the heavyweight champion? That makes no sense whatsoever.

NO, he would still be champion because he beat Fury. Usyk no longer needs those belts. They were a means to an end. Becoming HW Champion of the World. That came with the Fury fight.

[kafkod]

Isn't that exactly what I said about "positioning" himself?

Still wanted the Fury fight, didn't he?

Without the Fury fight he wouldn't be called champion today. Just another AJ with multiple belts.

[EDIT] Speaking of quoting fighters. Mike Tyson said, he knew he has to beat M. Spinks before it would all be settled.

The "undisputed" crap was for HBO and the casuals. Tyson was a fight fan as well as a fighter and he knew he needed to take down Spinks and said it.

Which fight got Tyson the biggest payday? Berbick, Tucker, or Smith? Correct answer: M. Spinks. Why? Because he was the lienal champion.

Again, Usyk said, in multiple interviews, that it was Fury's WBC belt he was interested in, not Fury himself, because he needed that belt to achieve his dream of becoming the undisputed HW champion. He also said that becoming lineal champion means nothing to him. Who are you to say different?