Fury's retirements and the lineal championship

[billeau2]

That's 3 times I've asked you to explain to me how Wlad became the lineal champion via man-who-beat-the-man lineage, and you keep ducking the question. The truth is that Wlad didn't become lineal champ via lineage and he certainly didn't become lineal champ by winning a lineal title fight. That would be impossible because, like I keep telling you, there is no such thing as a lineal title.

What happened was that history buffs at forum and ratings sites like TBRB decided that they needed somebody to call, "the lineal champion" and Wlad was the best candidate. Fair enough. But please stop pretending there was anything more to it than that.

"but how about when the alphabets demanded Lewis fight Ruiz? a scrub, and Lewis chose to fight whom the people wanted: Grant... That is the nature of the Lineal! Whether it was for the Lineal, or not... It is an example of how fans voices and declaring whom is the best matters... And Grant was a stronger opponent than Ruiz, to anyone who understands boxing"

That had nothing to do with any lineal title. Grant was the money fight for Lewis at that time, so he fought him.

I do not need to explain anything to you. It is not germaine to the debate at hand. Besides, you proved you are either not very self aware, or argue in bad faith because you GOT the analogy and claim you didn't, despite sescribing what was intended...

pretending? You have been shown to be a ful... Saying something is not real that has been described to you and never have you been able to argue back anything but your opinion. And what is wrong with Lewis fighting Grant and the money being good? Just a red herring like your assanine need to present an argument from Monty Python's argument clinic...

"The lineal is a traditional title that real fans know the value of through history and consensus"
Your response "Its not real, no its not." Lol... Quite the detailed argument there chief...

Since you do not know when you have been dealt with? let me break it down real carefully like: "You have failed to show any reason, any mechanism to disprove the legitamacy of the lineal..." You simply state it is not real when it quite obviously is... then you present those who SAY they represent it like Fliescher and Fury when they don't... The lineal is consensus based.... And then you want to ride the red herring express asking me how Vlad qualifies as the lineal! unrelated.

I disagree with you but your answers to the argument are ridiculous. If someone like Iron Dan says "the lineal is useless" Well,at times it is! lol. And I respect Margiano and while I disagree with him I understand he may have his particular take on the lineal... But YOU are saying the lineal is fictional because it is not sanctioned by an independent agency which has proven to be ridiculous, whether you know it, or not.

[billeau2]

In 2013, Mayweather and Guererro fought for the "vacant Lineage" at Welterweight.

Does that make sense to have that fight for the "vacant lineage"? Curious on people's opinions.

Well for one thing? Whether unsaid, or not... There are subtleties that seem to indicate the lineal is much more of a concept to be applied to the heavyweights. From what I can gather, at one time the heavyweight champ was "the best." So this attitude, despite the obvious error, carried over. So IMO this does not make much sense.

[billeau2]

The evil genius of the media. The same guys who once convinced Americans they couldn't live with pre-sliced bread.

The promoters will sell a bogus lineal title as fast as they would any alphabet title. They don't care.

And when they do? If it is an alphabet nobody seems to care a lot... Sort of like the British boxing commission? I first learned of these folks when they attempted to stop what was perhaps one of the most entertaining heavyweight scraps ever... the Chisora Haye Affair! So because Fury, his drunk uncle, my aunt Sallie claim they are the lineal people turn around, negating the fact that the lineal is consensus based, and say "Aha" see how bad the lineal is?"

[billeau2]

Exactly! That's the point I've been trying to make here. Since Ring Magazine retired their lineal title belt, the lineage has been about history, not about "lineal title fights"

So how does that destroy its legitimacy? Consensus is a different form of power and dynamics. It works when people weigh in and determine something, it is a form of democracy. Im sorry, I still think you are using characteristics to claim the lineal is illegitimate when in fact it is "different" but valid when used as intended.

Nobody has ever said that the alphabets are not controlling boxing, only that fans using their powers to determine the legacy of the Lineal has its own particular power and usefulness... You disagreed continually, have you changed your mind. No of course not.

[kafkod]

I do not need to explain anything to you. It is not germaine to the debate at hand. Besides, you proved you are either not very self aware, or argue in bad faith because you GOT the analogy and claim you didn't, despite sescribing what was intended...

pretending? You have been shown to be a ful... Saying something is not real that has been described to you and never have you been able to argue back anything but your opinion. And what is wrong with Lewis fighting Grant and the money being good? Just a red herring like your assanine need to present an argument from Monty Python's argument clinic...

"The lineal is a traditional title that real fans know the value of through history and consensus"
Your response "Its not real, no its not." Lol... Quite the detailed argument there chief...

Since you do not know when you have been dealt with? let me break it down real carefully like: "You have failed to show any reason, any mechanism to disprove the legitamacy of the lineal..." You simply state it is not real when it quite obviously is... then you present those who SAY they represent it like Fliescher and Fury when they don't... The lineal is consensus based.... And then you want to ride the red herring express asking me how Vlad qualifies as the lineal! unrelated.

I disagree with you but your answers to the argument are ridiculous. If someone like Iron Dan says "the lineal is useless" Well,at times it is! lol. And I respect Margiano and while I disagree with him I understand he may have his particular take on the lineal... But YOU are saying the lineal is fictional because it is not sanctioned by an independent agency which has proven to be ridiculous, whether you know it, or not.

Why don't you just admit that you don't know the answer to my question?

[billeau2]

Why don't you just admit that you don't know the answer to my question?

Well two other posters showed you the mechanism. So why should I have to admit anything to you? Its just not germaine to the issue. Nobody NEEDS the LIneal to assert Vlad's status! he was a goody two shoes who always fought the alphabets mandatories... This is one of those times the lineal was useless. I do not play ****** games for ****** prizes... My knowledge and understanding of ow Vlad retained his championship is as follows: He always fought his mandos, who were with few exceptions, puddings designated as champs by the alphabet soups because they needed to have financial intersts and authority to make fighters act in the ring.

What does any of this have to do with the lineal?

[kafkod]

Well two other posters showed you the mechanism. So why should I have to admit anything to you? Its just not germaine to the issue. Nobody NEEDS the LIneal to assert Vlad's status! he was a goody two shoes who always fought the alphabets mandatories... This is one of those times the lineal was useless. I do not play ****** games for ****** prizes... My knowledge and understanding of ow Vlad retained his championship is as follows: He always fought his mandos, who were with few exceptions, puddings designated as champs by the alphabet soups because they needed to have financial intersts and authority to make fighters act in the ring.

What does any of this have to do with the lineal?

Nothing, so far as I can see.

[billeau2]

Nothing, so far as I can see.

You do realize you have contradicted yourself? Look, I am glad you and others were able to come up with a middle ground, I am just being honest... But heres the thing: you already admitted to understanding the concept, so if your argument is things that have a different base of power (consensus in this case) do not exist when confronted by the authority of an outside agency with its own agenda, that is your opinion. I have no desire to change it... But that is exactly what you are arguing whether you know it, or not.

[kafkod]

You do realize you have contradicted yourself? Look, I am glad you and others were able to come up with a middle ground, I am just being honest... But heres the thing: you already admitted to understanding the concept, so if your argument is things that have a different base of power (consensus in this case) do not exist when confronted by the authority of an outside agency with its own agenda, that is your opinion. I have no desire to change it... But that is exactly what you are arguing whether you know it, or not.

No, that's not what I'm saying.

The problem we are having here is that you are using different definitions, or conceptions, of what a lineal champion is, as though they were interchangeable, and they are not.

What I've been saying is that if your definition of a lineal champion is based on the lineage - man-who-beat-the-man - then Wlad was never the lineal champion, because Lennox Lewis was universally recognised as the man, and Wlad never beat Lennox. And if it's based on "consensus", then it lacks the objective, legal authority of the alphabet belts. Because only the alphabet orgs have the legal authority to award or withdraw their title belts.

I'm also saying that there has been no such thing as an actual lineal title, which is awarded to the lineal champion, since Ring Magazine retired their lineal title belt back in the 1990s, because they accepted that, with 4 recognised title belts, lineage could no longer be used to objectively decide who the real champion was.

If there had been an actual lineal title, which could only be won and lost in the ring, and Fury had won that title from Wlad, then nobody would have been able to argue with Fury when he came out of retirement claiming to still hold the lineal title. But there was no actual title. Fury tried to pretend that there was, but his lineal championship claim was really based on an appeal to consensus, and there was no consensus on who the lineal champ was at that point.

[QueensburyRules]

No, that's not what I'm saying.

The problem we are having here is that you are using different definitions, or conceptions, of what a lineal champion is, as though they were interchangeable, and they are not.

What I've been saying is that if your definition of a lineal champion is based on the lineage - man-who-beat-the-man - then Wlad was never the lineal champion, because Lennox Lewis was universally recognised as the man, and Wlad never beat Lennox. And if it's based on "consensus", then it lacks the objective, legal authority of the alphabet belts. Because only the alphabet orgs have the legal authority to award or withdraw their title belts.

I'm also saying that there has been no such thing as an actual lineal title, which is awarded to the lineal champion, since Ring Magazine retired their lineal title belt back in the 1990s, because they accepted that, with 4 recognised title belts, lineage could no longer be used to objectively decide who the real champion was.

If there had been an actual lineal title, which could only be won and lost in the ring, and Fury had won that title from Wlad, then nobody would have been able to argue with Fury when he came out of retirement claiming to still hold the lineal title. But there was no actual title. Fury tried to pretend that there was, but his lineal championship claim was really based on an appeal to consensus, and there was no consensus on who the lineal champ was at that point.

- - If Lewie comes out of retirement so Jake Paul can beat him up, Lineal Loons say Jake the new Lineal Champ.