I've just thought about this and I can't understand what people categorise as running in boxing.
If someone outmoves his opponent and lands more punches then he has won the round. When Algieri fought Provo he landed way more punches but people just said "look at his face who would you have rather been?" Well let's apply this logic to rigo vs donaire. Rigo outlanded donaire and badly marked his face but some still said he was running despite donaire being hesitant to throw anything. If you were Algieri would you just plant your feet and stand still against a known puncher? No, you would move around and disrupt him with potshots and some combinations.
With the Lara canelo fight (which I believe canelo only just won) people claimed Lara was running when in fact he was using lateral movement. When pacquiao did this against rios I saw no complaints at all.
The main point I'm trying to make is if you were really scared of your opponent you wouldn't get in the ring with him. This isn't a bar fight where only one is left standing, this is boxing. I like all action fights as much as I like boxing chess matches but now if seems like you can't even sidestep without being called a runner.
Well, I have always categorized it as someone who utilizes practically nothing apart from defensive footwork and is constantly moving whilst offering almost zero offensively.
And still overrated... I couldn't be bothered to even watch this fight. Neither Lara nor Canelo are championship quality.
I agree. JMW is absolutely the most overrated division In boxing IMO
We can all just hope the mighty Kalule perceives his division's puny, desperate screams of help and returns to his throne to once again rule with an iron-fist while shedding some much needed greatness over the division for one last time.
It's now becoming increasingly clear that Wladimir is the greatest HW who ever lived.
It was unimaginable how any boxer would be able to top LEnnox Lewis but in the very next generation it seems to have been done.
Completely transformed boxing from a scrap to a game of chess.
Tore down the very foundations of boxing and rebuilt them in his own image.
THIS time, I think we will have a pretty long wait until somebody tops him.
The bar has been raised extremely high now.
:rofl2: ..
cotto is an ATG, beating the lineal middle weight champ when you started your career at 140 will do that. he is in the same ilk of an ODLH, no doubt although prime for prime, odlh would get the better of him in a head to head.
:rofl2: ..
Exactly. I am kind of in both fields. Some old greats could compete in this era while some would struggle. But this "athletes today are bigger, faster and stronger" doesn't seem to apply to boxing because a lot of boxers still get gassed early on.
It depends on how you define "old greats". Pre-1930? '50s? '80s?
all this post, in response to sarcasm? get a feel for the land, homes.
I have at least explained my stance and why I think so.
I took for granted that you were serious. Finding a poster of Puerto Rican (which I presume you are?) descent on this board without strong nationalistic bias is about as likely as that Santa Claus exists.
gavilan and leonard get respect.. gavilan had a long reign at 147 over 6 years..leonard though shorter 3 years still fought some good names at 147..looking at resumes floyd definitely edges ray at 147 ray's regin was very short. floyd is going on 10 years undefeated so i see your point..
Yup.
Everyone must surely consider Judah, Baldomir, Guerrero, Mosley etc. as a superior set of wins compared to Benitez, Hearns and Duran?
haven't researched leonards or gavilans resume that in depth to make that distinction..i'm strictly basing this on fighters since 1990..
Trust me; he’s better than the Cuban poor man’s version of Calzaghe. Leonard wasn’t exactly elite either. I mean, how can someone lose against Duran?
Styles make fights and Pacman is something that Robinson probably never knew existed IDGAF if Pac drops his hands or anything. Pacman would be moving all over this man like clockwork.
Thats not a competitive match up either, so why sit up here and try to FIND a way for Robinson to win? Just because he fought in the past? If he fought in this era and his name was Jimmy Johnson its NO WAY you would pick a fighter of that caliber to beat Pac. Its all D-Riding solely because he is a past ATG fighter.
What the fvck is the matter with you?
true, cotto would probably stop ODLH in his tracks.
It was directed towards the part of him being an "ATG", not whether he would win or lose against De La Hoya.
I've always viewed Cotto as a good, solid fighter that veers between OK and good in most areas, but also with some glaring flaws and without being truly outstanding in any aspect or having some notable attributes whatsoever. Physically feeble and not especially versatile either, more of a jack of all-trades sort of fighter rather than a complete technician.
As far as his ability and tools goes I would say he has squeezed out every drop of his potential and carved out as good career as he was likely to ever do. It is admittedly not over yet, but I would even say he has overachieved to a certain degree.
He's however not likely to have as much success in a stronger era though. Possibly a contender for a while, but eventually burns out and falls off the world stage after some brutal fights due to his less than stellar durability.
That's hardly a bad level to be at, even if people goes batshyte crazy over anyone who doesn’t rate the recent crop of “elite“ fighters as ATG’s.
Everyone has different parameters and definitions of what entitles ATG-status though, mind you, and my view isn’t authority.
Why?
When Oscar and Tito achieved more than him, had more defenses and faced better opposition?
Oscar is clearly the best, with possibly Tito second and then Manny third, the second tier guys could be Mayweather, Mosley or Cotto
Did they really achieve more AT WELTERWEIGHT though? That’s the question at hand - not what they achieved in all the various weight-classes they participated in at one time or another during their careers.
Did they really do that? Did they really, as you said, face better opposition AT WELTERWEIGHT? Okay if you rate them higher than Curry because you think they were the inherently better fighters, but to act like their wins at the weight is the ultimate tie-breaker and testament to their superiority, I must say I actually think you’re being a bit naive.
Each to their own I guess, and those fancy trinket-defences might look good on paper, but who were they really against? Not that Curry’s whole reign was against world-beaters, but c’mon, especially Tito’s were piss poor stuff. De La Hoya’s was better, but clearly superior to Curry’s?
In my opinion, nope.
Admittedly I am not as high as others on that particular era of welters - good, but overrated IMO, not the type of Golden Age some would make you believe - but I like to at least think that it doesn’t cloud my judgment on their overall worth as fighters. Not that they weren't excellent fighters, they clearly were, just not at the level as an overall package as Curry IMO.
Although I can see how the Honeyghan debacle is counted against him, he still doesn’t lag behind any of them record-wise and certainly not in terms of ability. He displayed a more complete and diverse skill-set than either of Tito and ODLH ever did, and I would favour him over both in a peak vs peak match-up even if there’s always the chance of Tito’s power turning it around.
Maybe not a popular opinion, but it’s my two cents.
I will never concede that any of Mayweather, Pacquiao and today’s equivalent to Oba Carr - Cotto - is better welterweights than Curry though. NEVER.
Pac’ and May’ gets overestimated at the weight IMO and Cotto was never a great talent to begin with. They were just lucky to end up in the worst period in 147-pound history. ;)
if floyds next two fights are at 147 and he unifies with pac (WBO) and brook/khan (IBF) i would rate him ahead of tito and sweet pea since neither have unified the 147 division when they reigned.
Why stop there? It would probably see him surpass Gavilan, perhaps even Leonard.
He has more fights where he was weighed than fights where he wasnt weighed. Sound like you are reaching to me. He didnt weigh in on the Marcos rematch. Let me guess he was 175? Nah foolzo he was 150 and again outweighed by 15lbs most likely.
I am black so my comment wasnt racist btw! And no I didnt fail at anything! You are either bias against Floyd, or bias for the past ATG's. Thats the thing, I am not biased for or against Floyd but that dont mean that Im going to lie about him just because its the popular thing to do. I am not going to sweep how good he REALLY is under the rug. But I am ALSO not going to kiss the butts of the past ATG's when they cant even hold a candle due to boxing evolving!
You aint own a damn thangalang! Better gone somewhere foolio!!
Jesus f'n Christ...
You have to actually read my comments. As I have said plenty of times, I am NOT going to lie about the past ATG's just because thats what YOU ALL do. I am going to be HONEST about how good they REALLY were. Boxing has evolved and I am not afraid to say that. Get over it and start being honest withchaself!!
Jeez…
I am honest with myself. Just because I am not stuck in the “new is automatically better” line of thought doesn’t mean I am wrong.
You are not going to convert somebody else to your position in this type of debate, so why not start putting forward some arguments and explain WHY this era in particular is superior to the previous ones?
It would undoubtedly be a refreshing sight to see you test something new instead of taking the same old route as usual.
Pacquaio's style is similiar to Mexican's in:
Relentless pressure
Tenacity
Head hunting Punching
Iron Chin
Takes Punches to land Punches
Pride
The Mexican style is not always about talent or technique, but determination and the will to out tough your opponent until he breaks under your pressure.
I have never understood this thing about Mexicans being crude, unskilled fighters with a face-first style.
Overall, they tend to be very well-schooled with a textbook approach and top-notch punch variety.
Floyd Mayweather will beat Canelo Alvarez by unanimous decision he won't even get touched or hurt in that fight easy work.
Danny Garcia will knockout Lucas Mattysse or win a Decision, its a toss up but Danny will win (I am a Lucas fan by the way)
Wladimir Klitschko will TKO Alexander Povetkin in the later rounds.
Tim Bradley will outbox Juan Manuel Marquez look for Bradley to force JMM to come at him, UD Bradley.
Bernard Hopkins will beat Karo Murat by easy decision
Brandon Rios will KO Manny Pacquiao within 3 rounds, Rios will take every single punch and drop and wobble Pacman early and than finish him with a devastating Jab
If you guys want me to give you predictions for upcoming fights just drop them. I am pretty good and accurate with my predictions.
I think you're pretty much **** and inaccurate at everything.
/greeh
Joe Louis was allowed to fight a former lightweight.
http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=9007&cat=boxer
Well done! You just forgot one minor thing though.
I guess you didn’t consider it important enough in your quest to downgrade every single heavyweight pre-2000 that isn’t attached to the Klitschko’s in any possible way - it would probably be too much to expect from someone with your mental capacity anyway - but are you actually aware of that Conn was a 16-year-old kid when this occurred?
As a comparison, do you know which weight Chris Byrd fought at as a nineteen-year-old i.e. three years older than Conn? Light welterweight - which at the time was 139lbs in the amateurs.
Conn’s weight at the same age? 160lbs.
In other words, if we take the age-difference into account, it isn’t out of question that Byrd could’ve fought at lightweight if he had turned professional at the same age as Conn.
So with all this in mind, if I apply the same useless logic as you did and turn this around, Vitali and Wladimir were allowed to fight a former light welterweight who possibly also fought at lightweight when he was sixteen.
What’s even worse is that one of them even managed to lose, something Louis never did against Conn.
Quite embarrassing, eh?
Yeah I hate how everyone jumps on the 'one champion' bandwagon without thinking. Not only are unification fights great for the sport but also if there was only one champion then we would miss so much talent in the game through fighters not getting a shot. What we really need is for the (let's go with your idea of 2 champs) champs to regularly fight each other and for all the promoters and organisations to 'get on' and work with one another.... then boxing would be fine with 2 or even 3 champs.
EDIT: IN REPLY TO TECHLIAM.
If you not are the best, you shouldn't call yourself champion. Maybe i make it more simple than it is, but it's more prestige to be champion when only one can be it. And why are you saying that we would miss so much talent?
We wouldn't miss them, we would still see them but they will be contenders instead of "champions".
/greeh
Just an idea of thought of throwing out there for discussion.
I think most hardcore boxing fans are getting tired of all the ***** that goes on in the sport. Promoters not willing to work together, fighters cherrypicking, corrupt athletic commissions, corrupt sanctioning bodies, prehistoric drug testing, juicing fighters etc. The worst part of this is that the real power lies with the fans. As we are all used to hearing, Professional boxing is more of a business than a sport and the fans are the ones who provide the cash for that business. Is there any way the fans can have a real say in how the sport is run. Obviously the best way is not to hand over cash for fights but I think people just accept that it's a corrupt sport, shrug their shoulders and hand over their hard earned cash while saying, 'It is what it is. I don't like it but there;s nothing we can do.'
Is there any way a boxing fans union or interest group could be set up? If your a boxing fan you join up. Any upcoming fights or issues relevant to the sport could possibly have a voting system to publicise the opinion of the fans. For example: Fighter A is facing fighter B and fighter B is way over matched. The association come out and says, this is a soft match up and we do not endorse the fight.
Do you think something like this would influence rankings and match ups or just become another corrupt body being influenced by promoters money etc.? I actually fear it would be the latter but do you think it would be possible in theory?
Apologies for the long post!
A good start would be to have just one world champion in each weight class.
http://www.tbrb.info/
That is a really good site. Check it out if you havn't. Knowledgeable and honest people and none of them who are responsible for the rankings is some s**tty belt organizations b**ch.
/greeh
The so called "fans" like you make it painful to follow boxing.
Floyd climbed through the ranks like champions are supposed to do to get his spot. Now you have all these fakes coming into the sport trying to become overnight legends.
Manny can't hold Floyd's jock strap.
Floyd has defended his belts more times than Manny has fought for one.
Floyd has beaten more champions and broke more ppv records than Manny or any current fighter of the last twenty years.
Mannys marquee fights are p#ss poor imitations of Floyd's, he followed in his shadow for years trying to do what he does and still comes up short.
He even tried to shadow Floyd's 154 campaign and could not even do that right.
Floyd beat champs at 154, the champs , for the real belts. Manny fought margarito for a belt that they made up for him to avoid fighting Sergio, the actual 154 champ. Even after Sergio tried to fight him.
Manny will never reach the level Floyd has no matter how good his marketing team is.
Always second place , never good enough, there is only one TBE.
The so called "fans" like you make it painful to follow boxing.
Won the bantamweight tourney, still undefeated, has the opportunity to be a champion In 3 different weight classes.
Holds wins over Darchinyan, Agbeko 2x, A game Morel, & A slick Moreno (who many said would win) who hadn't lost a fight in 11 years. Never been KD.
But he's a bum? Your opinion is trash.
Didn't Darchinyan drop him?
/greeh