Can you be considered an ATG when these are your 10 best wins?

ATG thread. :lol1:

I could make a similar thread.. "Can you be considered an ATG when your opponents almost without exception were cruiser bums?" This closely sums up many past greats careers :lol1: Sure you can and I'll contribute If you do... ;) It should be easy to do it with both Ali and possibly Joe Louis.

How would you know who jab is, since you've only been on this forum for about a month? HWBlogger.... I never said I knew him from here. He knows where ;)

Look Viti/ or JAB if it is you.... How would you know who jab is, since you've only been on this forum for about a month? HWBlogger....

HOLY SH*T, I could actually feel brain cells dying as I read that post. It was like a bad acid trip where reality is warped and skewered. For gods sake Elroy, puff, puff, pass!! You shouldn't be hogging whatever you're smoking all to yourself!! You are out there! :rofl: I always hated dealing with you :lol1: Remember that "formula" you tried to apply once that was supposed to prove that the Klitschko's were garbage by awarding them a score based on how many top ranked opponents their opponents fought. And it turned out that because Byrd had beaten Holyfield it tipped Wladimir over the edge and he ended up on top of your own stats anyway designed to ridicule him? :lol1: That was a great day for all involved that one. But of course your not JAB right so you don't remember haha ;)

The fact those guys they beat could be rated so highly is simply an indication of how weak the era was. No, put VK back in those eras and they were NOT all HW's by the definition we use today, which is what counts. The HW limit was once around 150lbs. Do you consider them HW's as well? Joe Frazier's HW record is 13-4 (green bum) Ali's HW record is 28-5 (a B or C grade boxer) Of course Cruiserish experience still counts. But the difference is that most of the time the old timers significantly outweighed those opponents. Today they by virtue of the limit both have to be sub200. It would be frightening to think what someone like Chris Arreola could do to past boxers, let alone a VK! HOLY SH*T, I could actually feel brain cells dying as I read that post. It was like a bad acid trip where reality is warped and skewered. For gods sake Elroy, puff, puff, pass!! You shouldn't be hogging whatever you're smoking all to yourself!! You are out there! :rofl:

I could make a similar thread.. "Can you be considered an ATG when your opponents almost without exception were cruiser bums?" This closely sums up many past greats careers :lol1:

Again I'll ask, why do you have to rate a heavyweight of the past by the standards of this era? Put VK back then and they're still heavyweights. And please don't go trying to compare Votali's resume to Frazier's. Joe beat nearly three times the Rings top 10 rated heavies as VK Including Ali who is universally accepted as either number one or two all time. That he did it in far less fight just shows how much more impressive his experience was. Its like trying to compare Floyd's resume with Ray Leonard. The fact those guys they beat could be rated so highly is simply an indication of how weak the era was. No, put VK back in those eras and they were NOT all HW's by the definition we use today, which is what counts. The HW limit was once around 150lbs. Do you consider them HW's as well? Joe Frazier's HW record is 13-4 (green bum) Ali's HW record is 28-5 (a B or C grade boxer) Of course Cruiserish experience still counts. But the difference is that most of the time the old timers significantly outweighed those opponents. Today they by virtue of the limit both have to be sub200. It would be frightening to think what someone like Chris Arreola could do to past boxers, let alone a VK!

I think Wilder would feature pretty highly on Vitali's resume I'd give him that. All those old timers though I think Vitali would have swatted down without even breaking a sweat. Sure it can be viewed as an opinion. But some of the initial things you said were ridiculous. Obviously taken at large, those older blokes had better ring stamina than current heavies, same as speed, because they were about 50lbs lighter on average! The same size! Muhammad Ali's average opponent weight was just over 200lbs, the average fighters weight in his era was just below 200lbs. Vitali Klitschko's average opponent weight was almost 240lbs. The average fighters weight in his era was 225lbs. Previous eras too Muhammad's got lighter and lighter! Kind of ****s over your little theory there :lol1: You also shared another fantasy with us.. That previous boxers had better experience. Let me tell you that the total experience (ammy+pro+sparring) today is many times greater than past. Fights only (ammy+pro) it is clearly better today. Considering pro records, many current HW's have more experience than even past CHAMPS! Frazier for instance, only 32 fights! But the most telling figures I have for you are these ones... Muhammad's era was half HW and half CW. And the further back from there the more cruiser it was. When you take a record of those old guys from Muhammad's era for example (remember previous eras it's worse) HALF of those opponents are not what today we'd call a HW record. Whatever boxers did at lower weights, that's not the same as TRUE HW experience. When a current boxer presents a HW record, unless he WAS a former CW or something, ALL of the opponents on their record weigh over 200lbs! What's more the opponents those guys beat to compile those records yesteryear ALSO composed of sub200 boxers. So the heavyweight worthiness of those records are approximately 5 times less than current fighters! Otherwise all the HW's like Haye and Byrd and Chambers would have all of their cruiser fights considered HW fights as well and it'd be clear just how good these guys really were too compared to old timers. There is so much more that meets the eye when considering VK's career. Champs of previous times would be cans today! Again I'll ask, why do you have to rate a heavyweight of the past by the standards of this era? Put VK back then and they're still heavyweights. And please don't go trying to compare Votali's resume to Frazier's. Joe beat nearly three times the Rings top 10 rated heavies as VK Including Ali who is universally accepted as either number one or two all time. That he did it in far less fight just shows how much more impressive his experience was. Its like trying to compare Floyd's resume with Ray Leonard.

I think Wilder would feature pretty highly on Vitali's resume I'd give him that. All those old timers though I think Vitali would have swatted down without even breaking a sweat. Sure it can be viewed as an opinion. But some of the initial things you said were ridiculous. Obviously taken at large, those older blokes had better ring stamina than current heavies, same as speed, because they were about 50lbs lighter on average! The same size! Muhammad Ali's average opponent weight was just over 200lbs, the average fighters weight in his era was just below 200lbs. Vitali Klitschko's average opponent weight was almost 240lbs. The average fighters weight in his era was 225lbs. Previous eras too Muhammad's got lighter and lighter! Kind of ****s over your little theory there :lol1: You also shared another fantasy with us.. That previous boxers had better experience. Let me tell you that the total experience (ammy+pro+sparring) today is many times greater than past. Fights only (ammy+pro) it is clearly better today. Considering pro records, many current HW's have more experience than even past CHAMPS! Frazier for instance, only 32 fights! But the most telling figures I have for you are these ones... Muhammad's era was half HW and half CW. And the further back from there the more cruiser it was. When you take a record of those old guys from Muhammad's era for example (remember previous eras it's worse) HALF of those opponents are not what today we'd call a HW record. Whatever boxers did at lower weights, that's not the same as TRUE HW experience. When a current boxer presents a HW record, unless he WAS a former CW or something, ALL of the opponents on their record weigh over 200lbs! What's more the opponents those guys beat to compile those records yesteryear ALSO composed of sub200 boxers. So the heavyweight worthiness of those records are approximately 5 times less than current fighters! Otherwise all the HW's like Haye and Byrd and Chambers would have all of their cruiser fights considered HW fights as well and it'd be clear just how good these guys really were too compared to old timers. There is so much more that meets the eye when considering VK's career. Champs of previous times would be cans today!

I loved watching Vitali fight but his resume is not very good.

Somehow I don't think Wilder would "quite" have the record he does had he had VK's opponents instead. And I'm not sure Wilder's chances against VK would have been especially high either. He's not proven! I'd pick Wilder to beat everyone on VK's resume except Lewis and Byrd. That is pretty telling about Vitali's comp since Deontay hasn't proven a thing as of yet.

That certainly isn't true though. VK's opponents would not have even been ALLOWED to knock out a lot of past greats opponents. If VK instead, say fought the same career opponents as Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis for example.. He would have been pelted with oranges for cherry picking such weak opposition. Relatively speaking, their opponents might have been better.. Absolutely speaking VK's opponents were so much more dangerous it isn't really debatable. No, Vitali WOULD have been allowed to fight them in their era. It seems absurd VK always has to fight in this era for a comparison when past greats fought guys of comparable size, better experience and better stamina. I can easily see Joe Louis beating VK. I can see a fighter like Jimmy Young troubling him just the way Chris Byrd did. Frazier, easy to envision beating him. Joe Walcott spells trouble with his foot work though I don't think he would win. Vitali is a very good fighter, and again, no reasonable fight fan would deny that. But his comp was soft, there are no if, ands or buts about it. He'll be remembered as a guy who could have been an all time great and even should have, but lacked the resume due to fighting alphabet nobodies instead of the best fighters of his era. Maybe I'm right, maybe your right. These are just our opinions and only time with tell where he is ranked historically. I'd bet my last breath it will never be near the top 10 though.

Wilder KO's all those guys and the guy that beat them...make it happen!!!! Somehow I don't think Wilder would "quite" have the record he does had he had VK's opponents instead. And I'm not sure Wilder's chances against VK would have been especially high either. He's not proven!

Wilder KO's all those guys and the guy that beat them...make it happen!!!!

There is no guarantee no other top heavyweight in history wouldn't have walked through VK's resume just as easily. You have your opinion and others have theirs. :dunno: That certainly isn't true though. VK's opponents would not have even been ALLOWED to knock out a lot of past greats opponents. If VK instead, say fought the same career opponents as Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis for example.. He would have been pelted with oranges for cherry picking such weak opposition. Relatively speaking, their opponents might have been better.. Absolutely speaking VK's opponents were so much more dangerous it isn't really debatable.

Look Viti/ or JAB if it is you... It's not that I think Vitali's opponents **** over any others, that's clearly not the case. But VK's opponents are MUCH better than given credit for. I could go through the OP list and offer a much better appraisal for each and every one.. Some just a few decent facts, some I could offer much better. The thing is, you can say Lewis or Wlad fought stronger opponents and you might be right. But the difference is arguable and not so striking that you would declare VK's resume as lacking! VK did fight some pretty dangerous opponents and managed to dispatch all of them! There's no guarantee Lewis or Wlad could have handled some of VK's opponents as well and much reason to believe VK could have handled similarly opponents of Lewis and Wlad. There is no guarantee no other top heavyweight in history wouldn't have walked through VK's resume just as easily. You have your opinion and others have theirs. :dunno:

Look Viti/ or JAB if it is you... It's not that I think Vitali's opponents **** over any others, that's clearly not the case. But VK's opponents are MUCH better than given credit for. I could go through the OP list and offer a much better appraisal for each and every one.. Some just a few decent facts, some I could offer much better. The thing is, you can say Lewis or Wlad fought stronger opponents and you might be right. But the difference is arguable and not so striking that you would declare VK's resume as lacking! VK did fight some pretty dangerous opponents and managed to dispatch all of them! There's no guarantee Lewis or Wlad could have handled some of VK's opponents as well and much reason to believe VK could have handled similarly opponents of Lewis and Wlad.

Well fortunately VK is going to be ordained an ATG regardless of what any poll produces. And deservedly so. When you have among the highest KO ratio's with only 2 losses, both of which were surrounded in controversy, fought the heaviest opposition with some of the cleanest records of any boxer, never lost more than 2 rounds, never got behind on points and never got knocked down... It's kind of hard to seriously knock the guy isn't it :lol1: There's an excellent case for Vitali being the GOAT HW! Let alone questioning whether or not he is an ATG! That's borderline crazy. Lol, OK! :biggthump

Seems most disagree according to the poll. He was a very good fighter, no doubt about that. But his resume is very weak considering his talent. Well fortunately VK is going to be ordained an ATG regardless of what any poll produces. And deservedly so. When you have among the highest KO ratio's with only 2 losses, both of which were surrounded in controversy, fought the heaviest opposition with some of the cleanest records of any boxer, never lost more than 2 rounds, never got behind on points and never got knocked down... It's kind of hard to seriously knock the guy isn't it :lol1: There's an excellent case for Vitali being the GOAT HW! Let alone questioning whether or not he is an ATG! That's borderline crazy.