I'll take a million Paul Williams' in boxing. A guy who couldn't get the big names at 147 and a year later is at 160 calling out the big names there. How can you not appreciate this guy? Just weird, man.
I like the guy, I just don't accept that he is a pure victim, most avoided etc....
Nor do I think he's as good as many on here do. Can you imagine what a younger Hopkins would do to him, or Calzaghe, or Trinidad. He almost got decked by Martinez.
Good point guys, although I'd love to see Pacquaio vs Duran (my favourite fighter). I don't think that is easy to pick. Wouldn't call any of them bonafide ATGs either, but anyway I take your point.
Actually I can see a spot for him at 8-10 on my p4p list, as boxing is pretty weak right now outside of Mayweather and Pacman.
So we're all in agreement then. Williams is doing the right thing fighting Cintron, then he needs two more fights in 2010 lined up against some out of Foreman, Spinks, Martinez, Sturm, maybe Pavlik if he wants to get exposure at middleweight.
How about forgetting big fights and unifying belts at a weight class, fighting often and building a fan base.
Williams has held one world belt and hawks himself around like he's p4p. He's going about it all the wrong way. Pacquiao and Mayweather can pick opponents - PWill should knuckle down and build a legacy.
Yes, that is a good move, fighting Cintron I mean. No problem with that.
He's not on my p4p list. Talented guy but hasn't achieved enough yet. But thanks for imposing your own view as if it is bonafide fact.
I thought he lost to Martinez (I count the win but dont credit him as much as if he'd won in my eyes) - he also got outboxed by quintana and his best win is against a margarito who was dominated by Mosley.
I am saying that physically every fighter belongs in one place you are either a WW, a JMW, or a MW you can't be all three whenever you want.
If he can make WW then the rules say he can fight there but I am not going to applaud any win he has there against a normal WW because he is still a bigger man( JMW-MW) fighting a WW.
A fighter can fight at whatever weight he wants but for heavens sake why not actually respect the sport, win the championships and then move up a weight. Jumping between them looking for the biggest fight is just lame when you've not actually achieved p4p status.
you're all missing the point, which is that the reason he isn't on most reasonable people's p4p list is because he is a HW. It doesn't matter that he is a big HW or has a big reach. Most people don't penalise PWill for his reach and didn't with floyd when he was at 130.
The ring has strangely included HWs in the past I believe, although some historian may well correct me on that.
tough call. Oscar was in that fight v floyd going int the last 4 rounds but he could never put his foot on the gas when it mattered. No way should he have won on one scorecard, but he was right in it. If Mosley does as well I'll be mildly surprised.
because HWs aren't included in most people's P4P lists? Nothing to stop him going on yours though.
There isn't a set criteria for p4p - it is a mythical concept
No, I think that would make the list
Roy Jones
Manny
Floyd
Mosley
in my book. Without the win he is probably mixing it with oscar, hopkins, calzaghe, Lewis etc.
By era here I'm talking 1995-2010, which is roughly sugar's career span.
I'll judge the fight on its own merits, but from the outset I'd credit Pavlik a fair bit for a win. Martinez is a handy fighter who was unlucky against williams
It could prove loads - like who has the more heart, who has the better defence, who has the better footwork etc etc.
The reasons they should fight are exactly the same as the reasons other boxers fight. I think it will never happen and completely understand why, but that doesn't stop it being a shame from another point of view.
Judah is one of my favourite fighters to watch, and I don't imagine I'm alone on that.
He's fast, got a good punch and a dodgy chin and stamina. He's kind of got some heart but crumples under sustained pressure.
He's always in exciting fights. He had the natural talent to be a top p4p fighter but not the application.
These sort of polls are pointless. Obviously he doesn't have a particularly strong resume, as there haven't been many good HWs around in the last ten years.
I also don't buy the 'old' lewis slant you've put on this. Lewis wasn't old, and he didn't fight like an old or faded man. He fought like a guy who was a bit underprepared but still very much at the top of his game. Cracking fight that was.
I don't see that much wrong with pacman's competition.
Oscar was a money fight but remember he had pushed floyd for 8 rounds a couple of fights before and was much bigger than pacman
Hatton was the no.1 140lber
Cotto was (and is) a top WW fighter, and a much better opponent than any of those 140-7lb contenders like bradley alexander or berto
clottey was more of a stay busy fight, but he's a better fighter than the three in the last para too IMO.
Margarito is a bit of a dodgy one, and the catchweight thing annoys me no end. But I don't have too much criticism for pacman's competition in the last 2-3 years. Better opposition than Floyd esp given Floyd's inactivity.
I was really impressed with Maidana. Sure he's one dimensional, but he was terrific in that dimension. I don't see how the judge had it 113-112, as Khan won much more clearly than that, but Maidana was pretty close to KO'ing Khan.
The fact that Khan doesn't seem to think that makes me worry for him....
Calzaghe won the fight, but barely. I don't want to watch some edited highlights as that says nothing about the actual fight.
On a RBR basis I had Calzaghe winning by 1 or 2 rounds (can't quite remember, but Hopkins looked the better boxer for sure. For some reason around the 8th round Hopkins looked like he was looking for a way out and calzaghe pretty much swept the board from that moment on.
Not sure if Calzaghe landed some body shots that hurt Bhop or not, but he seemed troubled when he went down for the "low blow".
Shame calzaghe didn't do more earlier in his career. He could have been beaten by Hopkins/RJJ/Toney but we'll never know seeing as Warren kept him in Europe fighting for the most part C fighters.
A few on there aren't legends - hamed in particular. He achieved very little (although he had some amazing natural talent it is true).
Tyson as other have said never really beat an elite HW, althought he had plenty of wins over good heavies.
Calzaghe didn't really beat any elites until he faced hopkins, and that was a v close fight. Still gotta credit him with the win though, and I thought he deserved it just about.
floyd isn't overrated, he's a tremendous fighter but needs to fight more often to cement his place in the ATG top 20. He's way behind pacquiao in my list currently in achievement.
Well Hopkins went on to beat pavlik and may well beat pascal who outclassed Bad chad (and lost to I guess another hypejob in Froch)
I don't think Calzaghe was a hypejob. His best wins were later in his career - Frank Warren's work perhaps - but until after the lacy fight he was pretty much unknown outside of boxing circles in the UK.
He's plenty big enough for 168. He's got the power and the punch resistance no problem. In fact he's about average build for the weight. What he means is that he can't bully people (particularly Froch) at 168. No Arthur, you've got to box a bit more. It isn't even as if he couldn't land on Froch - he just didn't really try...
All credit to Carl of course, but it was woeful from a one time p4p fighter
I think it is a travesty that the 154lb belt could be contested at 150lb catchweight.
Completely devalues the belt, which, as far as I'm concerned, is still vacant.
So Cotto is the only one of the two with an actual win at 154
He hasn't pulled out of any fights because no deal has ever been reached. He has only had three proper fights at HW.
I can't be bothered to trawl through your posts - let's just say that I don't withdraw my comment, and this thread is an example in itself.
just wait and see what actually happens...the people who vote no might be british but then reading your posts hasn't exactly revealed you to be one of Boxingscene's most reasoned posters...
As funny as that may be it's great corner work.
He was telling him all the right things.
Yep - leading with the right is a good strategy against southpaws from what I've seen, especially ones who are quick and look to counter the jab. But didn't taylor spring right out and throw a loose jab, getting countered in the process.....
Something didn't really get through!
People have money problems because they are bad with money.
I don't have any stats but I wouldn't be surprised if there was little or no correlation between income previously earned and likelihood of bankruptcy.
So I answered legacy. It is not that I don't believe boxers should maximise the money they get for putting themselves at risk, but at the end of the day I view boxing as a sport, and in all sport legacy rules.
Plus, there is nothing stopping fighters building up a pension whilst they are fighting...many do.
this is one of the things I hate about boxing. They both have legitimate claims to be the best boxer on the planet, so this fight should be 50 50. simple as.
True, it's easy as a fan to under-appreciate the career aspect of boxing but a job is a job and most people would rather earn money with the least amount of risk to their future in reality.
This is what I don't get.
Boxing is a sport. Sports are engendered by ability, entertainment and competition. So as sports fans we absolutely reserve the right to reward people for all three facets I mentioned, and criticise fighters who do not.
This isn't farming or manufacturing.
I mean - if ducking is refusing to sign a three fight deal with the Klitschkos on their terms, then I suppose Haye is likely to be guilty as charged. But if reputable sources claim he turns down a 50-50 split in Germany v Wlad or Vitali, then I will call duck myself.