MrFactor

1. Andre Ward 2. Wlad Klitschko 3. Nonito Donaire 4. Tim Bradley 5. Gamboa 6. Bernard Hopkins**(Lol!)

I'm glad justice was served especially for the Mares-Agbeko I fight. Agbeko should've won that fight for Mares being dirty eventho Mares won the 2nd fight cleanly. You, like me, are stillpissed about that first Agbeko fight. Damn straight!

random replies...calzaghe clearly lost to hopkins. he was outlanded by a wide margin(fact, no need to use debunked compubox) and dominated in clean punching and defense. he won the punching air and ineffective aggression categories though. jermain taylor also "beat" hopkins in a fight that was much closer than the calzaghe one so he's also very great? the klit brothers are two different people. all time great heavyweights don't dominate a division with some other guy in it that they never fight. Thats a great point in that they are 2 people. Not being funny, either. Both should b judged on their merits individually. I think both of them have figured out how to use their height and reach advantages to the point that no one can touch them. I think these guys along with Lennox Lewis may be the best heavyweights we've seen. Once these guys hit their stride, nobody can get close enough to hit them. That includes dream match ups against past greats. Height and reach mean something if used properly. These guys do just that.

Carlos Maussa or Ricardo Mayorga. When you look at them, they arent really that talented in boxing, but both managed to become popular champs for their 15 seconds of fame.

Baldy was a BEAST!!! He was rolling through opponents when mayweather derailed that train. Baldomir was gonna rule 147 for years had Floyd not tamed the beast. Floyd decided that this was a much tougher match up than that cheating scrub Margarito. After all, Baldomir just scraped by Zab Judah and Arturo Gatti two stars and KO artists at 147. Thank You Floyd!!! Baldomir was a menace. Sheeeit! That ninja made me lock my doors at night...

Now, one would say that based on tonight's performance, Floyd would be licking his chops to expose a inferior fighter for a big payday. It's actually quite the opposite. What Floyd saw tonight (if he watched the fight) is a guy who isn't just your generic, come forward pressure fighter. But a guy who can slip his punches and use his defense as well, even though his offense wasn't up to par. Canelo will give Floyd all kinds of problems. It will go similarly to Trout-Canelo except now the height advantage is gone and you've got two equally tall fighters. Yup, thats the way i see it too.

yeah but also what about a fighters mind? Its not just about changing strategy, its also about screwing up a fighter mentally. You can break a guy or get someone pissed off which is in both cases bad for the fighter. I know some boxers who may jump up screaming if losing after 4 when they know they should be ahead, dominate the next 4 rounds, and are still losing after 8. Those guys may start standing up and going crazy. Yelling at the fans, cameras, judges, commentators and so on. I could just see a guy jumping up like "how the fudge am I losing? They are trying to rob me". Throwing a tantrum and just totally effecting the rest of the belt. I just dont like all the negative possiblities. The bad far outweighs the good that could come from doing it LOL!!! I can see that too, maybe thats what boxing needs.

I just dont like anything that changes the way someone fights. Even on the reverse end. In that same example I gave, what if Canelo is getting clowned by a near shutout but then the scores come out and he's way ahead. Instead of him going for the KO like he should, he gets to coast and run to a victory even though everyone knows he got dominated. Bascically he could suck all fight and still get to coast to the finish line. I just dont like it. Open scoring after EVERY round, you'd see that before it became a problem. Fighters wouyld get posed, especially if they think they won a round and the cards say different. I think if you have 10 cases, it would be like 8 of them with bad things happening and 2 where it plays out well. Not only that but it can kill all the drama. I mean Canelo knew he had it in the bag against Trout. Some ripped his stamina but it also had to do with him not caring. He knew he had won. If they dont announce scores then he probably thinks its dead close and goes all out down the stretch If Trout knew he was losing as many rounds, then he could have changed his strategy well before the 8th. Making adjustments isnt anything new in the sport.

I hate anything that changes the way a guy fights. Thats on his know how and his trainers to figure out. What if we have the same Rigo-Donaire fight with open scoring but after 8 rounds the cards read that Donaire is winning by such a margin that Rigo needs a KO to win or atleast a knock down. He then changes up and starts pressing so hard that Donaire catches him and knocks him out. Everyone would feel totally different now about that fight. There would be people arguing that Nonito is the superior fighter and it was just a matter of time before he caught him. They will say that who is to say that Rigo wouldve lasted? No one knows. However, now we do know that Rigo did last and clearly beat Donaire but if the scores were open and showed Donaire winning then it couldve drasictaclly change that fight. I dont think that is right. They should never be open. Never That forces a guy to make adjustments to try to win. Nothing wrong with that. In football it happens. If a typical running team finds themselves down by 20 late in the 3rd quarter, they will likely start passing a lot more. You have to make adjustments anyway. A fighter should definitively know what he got for EACH round and not assume he's up or its a close fight when it truly may not be. After the fight, how many fighters ask themselves, could I have done more to win. I wish I knew I was so far down on the cards...

Do people stop watching football games that are blowouts at the end of the 3rd quarter? Of course they do. In football, basketball and basebll, there int a home run that can make up for huge point deficits. Boxing has that. You can still get knocked out with 1 second to go in the 12th round.

As someone else mentioned, it ruins the suspense. The Trout-Alvarez fight is a perfect example. The fight lost excitement after round 4 and lost even more after round 8. You said our problem is more with the scoring than with devulging the scores. Sadly, boxing is plagued by bad scoring, so it has the potential to ruin every 3rd or 4th fight. Also, if a fighter doesn't know he is being robbed he will continue to fight his heart out. When the scorecard are read after the fight most will recognise it as a robbery. If a fighter knows he is being robbed, however, he may simply not try, quit, or fight stupidly trying to get the knock out. In doing so he will lose the remaining rounds, thereby making the fight closer than it otherwise would have been. The fight won't be thought of as a robbery and the injustice done to the fighter will be overlooked. If you are going to have open scoring, reveal the scores once after, say, round 5, and leave it at that, but I think it's better that it's done away with altogether. Is it really the suspense part, or is it the disappointment in the scores. They were much wider than we believed them to be. The same disappointment is just deferred in a fight that most had as very close and competitive where open scoring isnt present.

There was disappoinment in the scorecards and a subsequent decline in excitement. In the case of bad scoring, at least fans will have 12 rounds of excitement when the results are deffered. In Trout-Alvarez there was excitement from 1-4, a lower level of excitement from 5-8, and a lower level again from 9-12. Most people had a gut feeling that some shady stuff would go on with the scores prior to the fight. I do agree about the feeling of a balloon deflating after the 8th because I felt that way too. If Trout knew his scores from 5,6 and 7, perhaps he would have tried to adjust and do more.

Keep in mind, he took a hellacious beating, open scoring or not. He may have retired anyway.

but football and nearly every other sport is black & white. If youre down 20 then youre down 20. There is pretty much no disputing it. However, in boxing you could really be outboxing someone and 2 crooked judges can have you down by 4 rounds. Then you try to do something different, get knocked out, and no one gives you the benefit of doubt. Guys can be well rounded all they want but there are different strengths and I dont think its fair. What if Floyd is fighting Canelo and is putting on a show. He knew he couldnt got toe to toe with the big strong monster but is putting on a brilliant pure boxing performance. It seems like a near shutout for Floyd but they read the cards and instead its Canelo winning by 3 rounds. Now the only way for Floyd to win is to go for a KO against a huge monster. He goes in, gets busted up, and Canelo wins by KO. I just dont like it. Id rather lose with all the public thinking I really won instead of still losing and being batter or KTFO in the process with half the people now thinking that I wouldve been KO anyways Without open scoring, Floyd doesnt know he's down 3 rounds, so he continues to coast and ends up losing. Had he known midfight that its close, then he should crank it up or make adjustments to try to win the fight. Thats just common sense. If he gets KO'd then so be it. Thats the sport he chose to be in.

what if they shouldnt be behind? What if they should be winning or it should be close but some idiot/crooked judge has him losing by a ton. Now he changes the way he's fighting and gets KTFO There should be 5 judges. 3 ringside and 2 in a closet with several monitors and no commentary. I would even say perhaps the 2 should be in a different state, so they have no ties at all. That would be a way of having checks and balances in the system. If scoring was open, then the ring side judges would be subject to more scrutiny if their score was posted after every round. It would be much more apparent to the fans, it would effect the money and those judges would get booted out quickly after 1 or 2 fights. Not everyone who is a judge is cut out to be a judge.

I just watched the fight for the 1st time. I watched it while listening to a debate on another subject, so I didnt have sound on the fight turned up. I saw a much more competitive fight than many of you on here. I saw Guerrero win 3 or 4 of the 1st 4 rounds. I saw the 1st really dominant round for Mayweather as the 8th. The 7th, I found as a good solid Guerrero round. The ref had to pull him off Mayweather, of course with the sound own, I didnt hear why the ref snatched Guerrero who didnt appear to be doing anything but really banging Mayweathers body with both hands. The 11th was also a very dominant Mayweather round. It was very close, to me. I loved how Mayweather really sat on his punches in the 11th and tried to put Guerrero away. It wasnt working because Mayweather doesnt have the power at the weight. Some things I took from the fight were that, again body shots dont count at all when the favored guy isnt landing them. When Mayweather holds Guerrero's arm on one side and Guerrero plasters his ribs 5 or 6 times with his free hand, those punches apparently dont get counted. They did seem to bother Mayweather quite a bit though. The replay's in between rounds were very Mayweather dominant, almost indicating that Mayweather didnt get touched at all. I think after each round, they showed the flashy highlight that showed Mayweather give Guerrero a 1-2 and then slip 2 Guerrero return shots. That got old. I think they showed one Guerrero highlight in the first or 2nd round where he caught Mayweather ducking into a viscious body shot. It looked like it really bothered him. It happened a few more time during the 1st half of the fight, until Mayweather adjusted and started really playing keep away as often as he could. This fight was Canelo/Trout all over again. The popular/favored guy got benefitted from his popularity. I cant believe how this fight was listed as such a dominant performance for one guy. It was very close and competitive. I think Guerrero did better than Cotto. Just that Guerrero has power issues himself at this weight. Cotto's landed harder punches, but wasnt hitting Mayweather's body as much as Guerrero.

I didn't watch the fight until the replay on Showtime Saturday night but I think what I heard about Floyd dominating and winning easily, was not exactly true. I thought the fight was much more competitive than fights like Hatton or Marquez. That Guerrero was not completely outclassed. Mayweather ran a lot and threw 6-10 pot shot rights a round. Apparently that is considered masterful boxing. Sometimes his rights connected and a lot of other times they didn't. Mayweather's jab and left hook were not effective. He never hurt Guerrero. Guerrero was the aggressor most of the time. He landed a lot of good thudding body shots, but it is difficult to land head punches to Floyd because he moves a lot and has great anticipation. Although I guess Floyd won, Guerrero did win rounds. I see some signs of age in Floyd. I don't think that was one of Floyd's greatest performances at all. He would not make easy work of Canelo if he actually fought him, which he won't. This is exactly how I saw it. Great post.

Most boxing fans don't hate Bradley, but you can't get away from the fact that he was seriously over-rated for a long time. He's a good fighter, but he isn't a great one on the level of Martinez, Pacquaio, Marquez, Ward, and Mayweather. Been a Bradley fan for some years now. He absolutely IS a great fighter. The thing that plagues him is his lack of power. Unfortunately he actually showed some power in this last fight, its just that it was against a gut with an iron jaw. Provodniklov is a tough out for anyone. He's going to make some serious noise at 147. He reminds me of Katsidas, just much, much tougher. He's gonna stop some guyts in the top 3 or 4 of the division. That will be the measuring stick for which we measure Bradley. Bradley beat this tough guy that KO'd some guys in the top 3 or 4. Trouble is nobody wants any parts of provodnikiv now. he did himself a disservice by beaing too good.

Its actually not a bad move for Mayweather Jr jr. he's testing the waters against the most vulnerable guy between 140 and 147, with a belt. I think Mayweather Jr Jr should be favored, but Paulie isnt just gonna give it to him. Paulie has great boxing skills. For all the trouble Mayweather Jr Jr had with Gavin Rees in those first 4 rounds, Paulie will give him that all nite and force Mayweather Jr Jr to pull out his whole arsenal. Come the 12th round Mayweather Jr Jr may need a stoppage to assure him the W. Paulie's gonna box.

HAahahahahahahaha Definitely the most ignorant s**t I've read in a long time. Why would they dominante Ali's era???? Size???? So because the Klitschkos are 240+, same with Lennox Lewis, theyw ould beat Ali in his prime, who was way way way quicker than anyone either have fought, because Ali was only 210-215. Or because Foreman was only 220-225. Then you must think they'd easily beat Tyson, because he was only 218 lbs in his prime, same as Sonny Liston. Ali never faced anyone with their size speed, athletic ability and power either. Those 3 guys are very unique in Heavyweight history. You can give me guys like Ingemar Johansen, but he wasnt nearly as good as the Klits or Lennox. He was nothing more than an athletic plodder who eventually allowed people to break distance against him. The Klits and Lennox rarely ever make that mistake. You are the exact type of poster I was talking about when I mentioned having "Paul Bunyan syndrome." The reality is that physics still existed in the classic eras too. Ali is no faster than Eddie Chambers, Chris Byrd or David Haye. Any of those guys would have given Liston, Frazier, Norton and Foreman fits too. The Klits and Lennox would have stopped those guys and yes SIZE does play a major part of it all. To ignore the fact that these guys use their size as a strentgth above all else and better than anyone has ever used it, shows your own brand of ignorance. Sorry, I don't think Wlad who got knocked out by Corrie f**king Sanders in his prime would havve beaten a prime Ali (64-67). And I don't think Vitali, who struggled to dominate a 37 yr old Lennox would have beaten a prime Ali. And I don't think Lennox who got KO'd by Oliver McCall and struggled to beat a 37 yr old Holyfield would have beaten a prime Ali. I think Wlad's Prime came around the time he fought Sam Peter. When Emmanuel Stewert became his trainer he blossomed. You should know that boxers peak at different times. Not everybody's peak is at 25. Tysons prime was when he was about 20. That was the best Tyson we ever saw. Ali's was when he was about 27 or 28. That was the best Ali we ever saw. The Klits and Lennox primes began around 35. So Lennox, or the Klits best came around 35 years old. Thats when we see the best of them. People will remember this run that the Klits are on right now as possibly the best in the history of the division. Give them their due folks. Ali hands down has the best HW resume ever, and one of the best resume's in the sport. 3 ATG's in Liston, Frazier, and Foreman, as well as another great HW in Patterson. On top of that, he also had wins over Cooper, Chuvalo, Mildenberger, Williams, Folley, Terrell, Quarry, Bonavena, Mathis, M. Foster, B. Foster, Bugner, Ellis, Lyle, Norton, Shavers, and Young. I dont disagree with you here. Ali has an outstanding resume for his period. I dont think he runs through the 90's til 2000's as a dominant fighter. He's not Paul Bunyan. At best, he'd be just another titlist. The fact that the TS said Lennox Lewis is up there with Ali as the greatest HW ever is asinine. Lennox Lewis' best wins were Gary Mason, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Oliver McCall, Henry Akinwande, Andrew Golota, Shannon Briggs, Zeljko Mavrovic, Holyfield (past his prime), Michael Grant, Francois Botha, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson (past his prime), and Vitali Klitschko (lucky cut stoppage). Actually, thats a pretty damn good resume. You must hate the 90's and love the 70's. Lennox Lewis is one of the best HW of all-time but his resume doesn't even compare to Ali. 2 of the 3 ATG HW's he beat were past their primes and the other one, he was losing the fight and got a lucky stoppage on a cut. Had that fight gone on, Vitali would have ended up winning a decision. Also, no way in hell Ali would have lost, let alone KO'd, by Oliver f**king McCall in his prime, like Lennox was. Everyone's resume can be scrutinized easily. Some guy born in the 20's will probably tell you Joe Louis's resume was the best and he could probably justify it by shelling out a bunch of names from a bygone era of fighters who were great in that era. Lets just say, I dont think at any point of his life, that Lennox Lewis loses to Leon Spinks. If we plucked a 70 year old Lennox Lewis up in our time machine, I think he would beat the Leon Spinks that beat 36 year old Ali. I do agree, Lennox in his prime was probably one best HW's ever, but not as good as Ali. Prime versions of Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis, and Riddick Bowe would have been the toughest fights for a prime Ali in my opinion. Why Riddick Bowe?? He was an idiot. Just asking, who did he fight? If you are scrutinizing the Klits and Lennox's resume's. Who did Riddick Bowe fight? I can tell you who he didnt fight. He didnt fight Lennox or the Klits. He didnt fight Tyson or Morrison or Mercer. He didnt even fight Razor Ruddock. Holyfield and thats it. Why does Riddick Bowe stand out to you? He had potential, but we will never know how good he could have been. Top 10 GOAT, NO ORDER: Ali, Robinson, Louis, Johnson, Armstrong, Tunney, Ray Leonard, Pep, Greb, and Langford. Not H2H, but based on career, resume, era, etc. The only ones that would be on their H2H are probably Ali, Robinson, and Ray Leonard. What is your criteria? Seems like you are just throwing out popular names from a bygone era because it makes you feel smart or like some boxing historian. Many of those guys were great in their era. If we had a time machine that could go snatch them up and match them up with guys today, some may fare well at lower weight classes, but at heavy, they would get dominated. What we have/had with the Klits and Lennox is unique and has never been seen before in the division. Ali, Frazier, or Foreman would dominate just like the Klitschko's did in the 00's and just like Lennox did in the late 90's. And I can guarantee that none of them would have lost to McCall and Sanders in their primes. Frazier would get easily KO'd because Wlad would be able to drill right hands right down the middle all day. Frazier blocked punches with his face. Look at his face after most of his fights. Yes, he had subtle head movement, but he also took way too much leather. Ali would do pretty much what Haye did. He'd wait for an opportunity that wouldnt come over 12 rounds. he'd get a few touches, but Ali didnt have the power to make Lewis or the Klits respect him. Vitali would treat the plodding non boxing Foreman very much like Arreola. I understand there is no winning with guys like you. You'll call me names and such, but I understand you're love for classic boxing. You probably think the 60's Celtics would dominate the NBA today, or the 72 Dolphins would go undefeated and win in 2012's NFL... Keep your channel turned to ESPN Classic and stay happy... I hate ****tin' in guys like you's cornflakes...

I think this is a great topic! I agree to a degree with the OP. Thats because so many people came after Ali. Ali is a treasure, but not the monster that people make him out to be, especially by todays standards. He fought the murderers row of his day and can be argued as the best up to that time, but we've seen bigger stronger more athletic, faster guys since Ali. If the Vitali Klitschko that fought Lennox Lewis boxed between the years 1960 an 1975, he'd easily dominate the likes of Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Shavers, Holmes, Norton and Spinks. Just becasue guys boxed in a classic era doesnt give them an ability to defy the laws of physics. This is what I call the Paul Bunyan syndrome for boxing. People make tall tales out of guys who boxed decades ago. Vitali, Wladimir and Lennox Lewis wipe the floor with guys from any era of boxing because for the first time in Heavyweight history we have seen 3 guys that stood over 6'5" with the skill, power and athleticism to beat the brakes off of a much smaller crop of heavyweights. All 3 of these guys have the uncanny ability to use their size to where it works their advantages wonderfully. Ali would be reduced to Eddie Chambers or Chris Byrd in this era. Frazier would be a Rahman type. Foreman would be Sam Peter or Chris Arreaola. Introducing Lennox or the Klits to heavyweight boxing is like introducing Wilt Chamberlain to the NBA. Same exact thing. After Wilt, if teams wanted to contend, they got 7footers who were tall and athletic. After the Klits are gone, the next dominant HW will be in the mold of Lennox and the Klit Brothers. The Klits can probably continue to fight well into their 40's maybe later because there is no guy right now in their weightclass that can challenge them.

1st things 1st. At what age were both of these guys at their best. I would argue that the Forman who went toe to toe with Holyfield was a much more rounded(literally and figuratively) fighter than the one that fought Ali. I would also argue that the Vitali Klitschko that bludgeoned Sam Peter, Juan Carlos Gomez, Chris Arreola, Shannon Briggs and Derek Chisora is better than the VK that fought Lennox Lewis. I think the best VK beats the best Foreman. I cant say it ends in a KO, but I do think based on workrate, VK outworks Foreman.

I said the same thing a while back. they are very similar.

Wilder has a fantastic jab. Look at the Jab he threw in Stiverne II. he was killing Stiverne with it. It was crisp, fast and hard. Wilder had problems with Ortiz because of the southpaw stance. Ortiz head wasnt where it was supposed to be, so that nullified Wilder's jab. Joshua's head will be right where its supposed to be. Joshua when challenged, moves straight back. See how Parkers short armed job completely stiffled AJ's offense. Where Parker wasnt landing the jab, Wilder will be. He will jab, jab, jab and catch him with a right in the first 3 rounds. AJ will be easy money for Wilder. The AJ camp knows it too, that why they are putting up all these walls and moving goalposts. They dont want it...

Maybe the 70's Ali. The Ali that beat Liston was very elusive. I think he could have been able to etch out a narrow decision over Wlad. The 70's Ali was much more flat footed.

Bowe-Holyfield Damn... Was about to put Ali/Frazier hands down, but damn... Bowe/Holyfield was just as good maybe better. Rnds 10-12 in the first one were possibly the greatest 3 rounds of all time.

There's no Lennox Lewis in the division who can check Wilder. Wilder is unothodox as hell, but he wins. He's that tall high school kid that can just fight. Joshua is the QB of the HS football team. The QB dont want no parts of the tall kid who can just fight...

Is there an ALL Time Good category?

Sakio Bika is a solid opponent. He's got a great shot to beat Stevenson. Don't sleep...

Bika's a strong tough as hell sob, he's actually fought a pretty notable list of fighters losing to all the best of course, but he's no scrub. That said he's seen his best days imo and no way is he who Stevenson should be fighting. Fck man it just fries my brain, we've got all these good fighters who won't fcking fight each other. Stevenson-Kovalev would be epic. Kovalev stops Stevenson in under 6 rounds.