Ali is not even in my top 5

Easily one of the most overrated boxers of all time. Most of his hype is based on his speed for a heavyweight and knocking out George Foreman. This makes you the greatest of all time? Note: he never wanted to fight George again. Sure, he beat Liston. But how difficult a task was that when a heavyweight had so much more speed than a tank with gloves (Liston)? He got served by Frazier and never figured him out. Ali was only 29 years old. He got served by Ken Norton 2 years later. He then beat Norton by SPLIT decision in the rematch. Many argue that he lost all three times. Ali was only 31. He was only 36 when he got served by Spinks. Ali throwing a body shot was so unusual that the times he did throw a body shot it should have gotten a standing ovation from the audience and front page news coverage for the following month. Don't talk to me about him not fighting for 3 years. Vitali was gone for 5 years and was still able to return and use the same advantages to beat all his opponents. He clearly was not as dominant of a fighter as say Bernard Hopkins, and he even knows he was not as dominant inside the ring as Mayweather. I would even say he was not as dominant as Andre Ward. People are captivated by Ali quotes to the point that they say he was one of the greatest without ever looking at his career critically. But when it comes to Mayweather they will turn their critical knob up to full blast. Once you criticize him there's a lot to talk about. I don't give a *blank* what he did outside of the ring. Non of that gets factored in when evaluating him as a boxer. When it comes to boxing greatness you need to be able to do more than throw fast head flurries and shuffle your feet.

Comments (20)

4Corners

Everyone's resume can be scrutinized easily. Some guy born in the 20's will probably tell you Joe Louis's resume was the best and he could probably justify it by shelling out a bunch of names from a bygone era of fighters who were great in that era. Lets just say, I dont think at any point of his life, that Lennox Lewis loses to Leon Spinks. If we plucked a 70 year old Lennox Lewis up in our time machine, I think he would beat the Leon Spinks that beat 36 year old Ali. Ali was way way way past it by the time he fought Neon Leon. It's like when Oscar fought Manny in 2008, he was DONE. You can't really compare guys prior to the late 50's/early 60's to guys from the 70's/80's-present day. I've always said the Klitschko's H2H would be favored of ANYONE prior to the Ali-Liston time in the 60's, without a doubt. That doesn't mean the Klitshcko's, Lennox Lewis, or others are greater than Joe Louis though. For the era that Joe was in, he easily has one of the Top 3 resume's at HW, easily. Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Jack Sharkey, Bob Pastor, Tommy Farr, Nathan Mann, Max Schmeling, John Henry Lewis, Tony Galento, Arturo Godoy, Johnny Paychek, Buddy Baer, Billy Conn, Tami Mauriello, Joe Walcott, and Lee Savold. People like Max Baer, Carnera, Sharkey, Schmeling, Lewis, Conn, Buddy Baer, were FAR AND AWAY better fighters for their era than Samuel Peter, Calvin Brock, Tomasz Adamek, and the list goes on. H2H, it's not fair to compare guys from Joe Louis' era to guys from today's era. Because if you put those guys in today's era, there builds would be totally different. And the same goes for if you put the guys of today in the era back then, they'd look totally different. Why Riddick Bowe?? He was an idiot. Just asking, who did he fight? If you are scrutinizing the Klits and Lennox's resume's. Who did Riddick Bowe fight? I can tell you who he didnt fight. He didnt fight Lennox or the Klits. He didnt fight Tyson or Morrison or Mercer. He didnt even fight Razor Ruddock. Holyfield and thats it. Why does Riddick Bowe stand out to you? He had potential, but we will never know how good he could have been. Holyfield, an ATG HW in his prime. And other names that are pretty equal to what Lennox and the Klitschko's have done (Tubbs, Seldon, Coetzer, Dokes, Donald, Hide, Gonzalez, and Golota). Riddick Bowe, though he cut his career short, we KNOW how good he was. He has the decent names on his resume like the Klitschko's do, but then he has the Prime Evander Holyfield on his resume, where he beat him 2 of 3. That right there, on top of the other decent names, puts him ahead of the Klitschko's all-time. It's not the Klitshcko's fault, there isn't another ATG HW besides them right now. I've always said, if they fought each other, and I don't blame them for not doing so, the winner would no doubt make a huge statement to climb the rankings of the greatest HW's of all-time. What is your criteria? Seems like you are just throwing out popular names from a bygone era because it makes you feel smart or like some boxing historian. Many of those guys were great in their era. If we had a time machine that could go snatch them up and match them up with guys today, some may fare well at lower weight classes, but at heavy, they would get dominated. What we have/had with the Klits and Lennox is unique and has never been seen before in the division. To be in the TOP 10 GOAT, you have to have wins over other ATG's when they still had it. Ali: 4 ATG HW's on his resume (Liston, Patterson, Frazier, and Foreman). Other good names on his resume as well such as, Cooper, Chuvalo, Terrell, Folley, Bonavena, Lyle, Norton, Shavers, and Buger to name a few. Robinson: Wins over 8 HOF fighters/ATG's (LaMotta, Fullmer, Basilio, Olson, Turpin, Armstrong, Gavilan, and Graziano. Numerous other good names on his resume as well. Louis: Wins over Carnera, Conn, Schmeling, Walcott, M. Baer, B. Baer, Lewis, and Pastor. Some great HW's and a good opponent of good HW's as well. The most dominant ever at HW probably. Johnson: 4 ATG HW's on his resume (Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, McVey, and Langford). Armstrong: Wins over Bass, Sarron, Wright, Ross, Ambers, Garcia, Pacho, Larkin, and Angott. Held titles at Featherweight, Welterweight, and Lightweight, AT THE SAME TIME. All of those guys were champions. Tunney: Wins over 2 ATG's in Greb and Dempsey. Also wins over Huck, Levinsky, Carpentier, Smith, and Heeney. Leonard: Wins over 4 ATG's in Benitez, Duran, Hagler, and Hearns. Pep: Wins over Archibald, Wright, Bartolo, Wilson, Joyce, Ortiz, Terranova, Saddler, DeMarco, Dade, and Riley. Most dominat Featherweight ever. Greb: Wins over Huck, Brennan, Gibbons, Tunney, Levinsky, Dillon, Meehan, McTigue, Walker, Loughran, and Flowers. Had his ATG in Tunney, and was dominat at LHW and MW in his career. Langford: Wins over Gans, Ferguson, Ketchel, Battling Jim Johnson, Clark, Jeannette, McVea, Wills, and Thompson. Never offered a shot at a world title, not his fault. The only one to even argue about possibly moving out of the Top 10 would be Langford. Frazier would get easily KO'd because Wlad would be able to drill right hands right down the middle all day. Frazier blocked punches with his face. Look at his face after most of his fights. Yes, he had subtle head movement, but he also took way too much leather. Ali would do pretty much what Haye did. He'd wait for an opportunity that wouldnt come over 12 rounds. he'd get a few touches, but Ali didnt have the power to make Lewis or the Klits respect him. Vitali would treat the plodding non boxing Foreman very much like Arreola. I understand there is no winning with guys like you. You'll call me names and such, but I understand you're love for classic boxing. You probably think the 60's Celtics would dominate the NBA today, or the 72 Dolphins would go undefeated and win in 2012's NFL... Keep your channel turned to ESPN Classic and stay happy... I hate ****tin' in guys like you's cornflakes... Ali would do what Haye did??? Go into full retreat mode??? Ali was like on fast forward when watching Haye, who's fairly quick himself. To compare Ali to Haye is just wrong. Foreman like Arreola????? Foreman was in shape and could punch. Foreman would f**king kill Arreola. Yes, I'd pick the Klitschko's over Joe Frazier H2H, but they aren't greater than Joe Frazier. Frazier has his defining win, over a past prime-still good Muhammad Ali. He has his win over another ATG HW, and other wins over decent/good HW's as well. Ali would be way way way too quick in his prime for the Klitschko's. The Klitschko's aren't THAT quick man. They aren't even close to Ali quick. And not to mention, what about Wlad's chin??? It was exposed by Sanders and Brewster, you don't think Liston, Tyson, Frazier, or Foreman had the potential to knock Wlad out????? Keep on thinking that Chris Arreola, Samuel Peter, Calvin Brock, Corrie Sanders, Tomasz Adamek, are the greatest things ever and are huge wins, I'll stick with reality. Vitali and Wlad have a bunch of good/decent wins over good/decent HW's, but they don't have the win over another ATG HW that still had it like Johnson, Louis, Tunney, Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Bowe, and Holyfield. And No I don't think the 60's Celtics would dominate, I f**king hate the Celtics. Lakers, Steelers, and UCLA Bruins fan here. The showtime Lakers and the Shaq-Kobe Lakers would probably do a number on the NBA today though. And the Steelers of the 7's could be a great team in the NFL today, why not??? Based on era, the Steelers of the 70's are the greatest dynasty and team EVER. Joe Greene, Jack Ham, Mel Blount, Terry Bradshaw, Franco Harris, Jack Lambert, Mike Webster, Lynn Swann, and John Stallworth, 9 HOF players on one team. H2H, they wouldn't beat everyone of today, but if you put them in today, they would be totally different styles and build. Same goes for if you put todays Giants, Steelers, and Patriots back then, they'd be totally different.

14y ago

4Corners

Ali never faced anyone with their size speed, athletic ability and power either. Those 3 guys are very unique in Heavyweight history. You can give me guys like Ingemar Johansen, but he wasnt nearly as good as the Klits or Lennox. He was nothing more than an athletic plodder who eventually allowed people to break distance against him. The Klits and Lennox rarely ever make that mistake. You are the exact type of poster I was talking about when I mentioned having "Paul Bunyan syndrome." The reality is that physics still existed in the classic eras too. Ali is no faster than Eddie Chambers, Chris Byrd or David Haye. Any of those guys would have given Liston, Frazier, Norton and Foreman fits too. The Klits and Lennox would have stopped those guys and yes SIZE does play a major part of it all. To ignore the fact that these guys use their size as a strentgth above all else and better than anyone has ever used it, shows your own brand of ignorance. Ali isn't faster than Fat Eddie Chambers, David Haye, and Chris Byrd??? And I usually give people Chris Byrd as a good Heavyweight, probably the best win along with David Haye on Wlad's resume. Foreman in the early 70's would dominate the exact same the Klitschko's have. And fighters like Ron Lyle, Earnie Shavers, and Ken Norton would BY FAR be the best HW's today along with the Klitschko's. The Klitschko's would beat Lyle, Norton, and Shavers, but they'd be the toughest tests for them. Ali NEVER fought Johansson, so.....that clearly shows your ignorance on the topic at hand. Sorry man.... I think Wlad's Prime came around the time he fought Sam Peter. When Emmanuel Stewert became his trainer he blossomed. You should know that boxers peak at different times. Not everybody's peak is at 25. Tysons prime was when he was about 20. That was the best Tyson we ever saw. Ali's was when he was about 27 or 28. That was the best Ali we ever saw. The Klits and Lennox primes began around 35. So Lennox, or the Klits best came around 35 years old. Thats when we see the best of them. People will remember this run that the Klits are on right now as possibly the best in the history of the division. Give them their due folks. Ali was "prime" when he was 27-28??? For the record, when Ali was 27, it was in 1969 when he wasn't even fighting and had been out of the ring for 2 years. And when he was 28, it was in 1970 against Quarry and Bonavena, and than early 1971 against Joe Frazier. Ali was NOT prime when he came back off the 3 1/2 layoff, my god. I'll go with what George Chuvalo said on FACING ALI. He said that Ali was not the same fighter after the layoff. He lost stamina, some of his speed in his legs, and he couldn't throw as lengthy of combinations. He was still good, up until 1975, but he wasn't prime, my god. The Klitschko's are ATG HW's but you can't seriously put them in the Top 10 based on career, era, and resume. H2H, they are Top 10, I've always said that. I dont disagree with you here. Ali has an outstanding resume for his period. I dont think he runs through the 90's til 2000's as a dominant fighter. He's not Paul Bunyan. At best, he'd be just another titlist. Why??? Because of size??? Ali would easily be the most skilled HW even in the 90's. We're talking a prime Ali, not the post layoff one, remember??? Actually, thats a pretty damn good resume. You must hate the 90's and love the 70's. Lennox has a good resume, so do the Klitschko's. It's mainly full of good/decent wins, not great wins. To be among the top HW's of All-Time, most have at least one great win against another ATG HW. Lennox had a bunch against good/decent HW's, but his three GREAT ones are ehhhh. Tyson and Holyfield, past their primes completely. And Vitali....he wasn't even winning. When you take career, era, and full resume into account, Ali has the best resume ever at HW. 4 ATG HW's, and many HW's haven't even beat one ATG HW when he still had it. Lennox only beat past prime versions of Tyson and Holyfield. Liston, Patterson, Frazier, and Foreman ALL still had it when Ali beat them. Johnson: Fitzsimmons, Jeffries, McVey, and Langford. Dempsey: Sharkey Louis: Schmeling, Walcott, and Sharkey. Marciano: Louis, Charles, Walcott, and Moore. Patterson: Moore Liston: Patterson Ali: Liston, Patterson, Frazier, and Foreman. Frazier: Ali Foreman: Frazier Holyfield: Bowe and Tyson Bowe: Holyfield Lewis: Tyson, Holyfield, and V. Klitschko. The Klitschko's don't have those wins. The cloest they have are probably Wlad over Byrd and Haye. And Vitali over Johnson, Arreola, or Adamek. And Lewis' wins over Tyson and Holyfield are highly scrutinized because they were past their primes. Holyfield still kind of had it though, and Lennox struggled to beat him. BY the time 2002 rolled around, Tyson didn't have it anymore. And his win over Vitali, he was loosing and got a lucky cut stoppage. So, there are questions over his best wins. Same goes for Marciano. Charles still sort of had it when Rocky fought him, but he struggled to beat him the first time. By the time 1953 rolled around, Walcott didn't really have it anymore. When he fought Joe Louis, Joe didn't have it anymore. Marciano did beat Archie Moore when Archie was still fighting well, sort of like when Hopkins was in his upper 30's and still one of the best in the world. The resume's of Vitali, Wlad, Lennox, Tyson, Holmes, Patterson are really close to me. Vitali, Wlad, Tyson, Holmes, and Patterson, a bunch of good/decent wins, dominated their times at HW and had good wins, but lacked the win over another ATG HW. Lennox, he has the wins over other ATG HW's, but they are highly scrutinized because Tyson was done, Holyfield still sort of had it, and he got a huge luck win over Vitali. Dempsey is the really overrated one from those era's.

14y ago

MrFactor

HAahahahahahahaha Definitely the most ignorant s**t I've read in a long time. Why would they dominante Ali's era???? Size???? So because the Klitschkos are 240+, same with Lennox Lewis, theyw ould beat Ali in his prime, who was way way way quicker than anyone either have fought, because Ali was only 210-215. Or because Foreman was only 220-225. Then you must think they'd easily beat Tyson, because he was only 218 lbs in his prime, same as Sonny Liston. Ali never faced anyone with their size speed, athletic ability and power either. Those 3 guys are very unique in Heavyweight history. You can give me guys like Ingemar Johansen, but he wasnt nearly as good as the Klits or Lennox. He was nothing more than an athletic plodder who eventually allowed people to break distance against him. The Klits and Lennox rarely ever make that mistake. You are the exact type of poster I was talking about when I mentioned having "Paul Bunyan syndrome." The reality is that physics still existed in the classic eras too. Ali is no faster than Eddie Chambers, Chris Byrd or David Haye. Any of those guys would have given Liston, Frazier, Norton and Foreman fits too. The Klits and Lennox would have stopped those guys and yes SIZE does play a major part of it all. To ignore the fact that these guys use their size as a strentgth above all else and better than anyone has ever used it, shows your own brand of ignorance. Sorry, I don't think Wlad who got knocked out by Corrie f**king Sanders in his prime would havve beaten a prime Ali (64-67). And I don't think Vitali, who struggled to dominate a 37 yr old Lennox would have beaten a prime Ali. And I don't think Lennox who got KO'd by Oliver McCall and struggled to beat a 37 yr old Holyfield would have beaten a prime Ali. I think Wlad's Prime came around the time he fought Sam Peter. When Emmanuel Stewert became his trainer he blossomed. You should know that boxers peak at different times. Not everybody's peak is at 25. Tysons prime was when he was about 20. That was the best Tyson we ever saw. Ali's was when he was about 27 or 28. That was the best Ali we ever saw. The Klits and Lennox primes began around 35. So Lennox, or the Klits best came around 35 years old. Thats when we see the best of them. People will remember this run that the Klits are on right now as possibly the best in the history of the division. Give them their due folks. Ali hands down has the best HW resume ever, and one of the best resume's in the sport. 3 ATG's in Liston, Frazier, and Foreman, as well as another great HW in Patterson. On top of that, he also had wins over Cooper, Chuvalo, Mildenberger, Williams, Folley, Terrell, Quarry, Bonavena, Mathis, M. Foster, B. Foster, Bugner, Ellis, Lyle, Norton, Shavers, and Young. I dont disagree with you here. Ali has an outstanding resume for his period. I dont think he runs through the 90's til 2000's as a dominant fighter. He's not Paul Bunyan. At best, he'd be just another titlist. The fact that the TS said Lennox Lewis is up there with Ali as the greatest HW ever is asinine. Lennox Lewis' best wins were Gary Mason, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Oliver McCall, Henry Akinwande, Andrew Golota, Shannon Briggs, Zeljko Mavrovic, Holyfield (past his prime), Michael Grant, Francois Botha, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson (past his prime), and Vitali Klitschko (lucky cut stoppage). Actually, thats a pretty damn good resume. You must hate the 90's and love the 70's. Lennox Lewis is one of the best HW of all-time but his resume doesn't even compare to Ali. 2 of the 3 ATG HW's he beat were past their primes and the other one, he was losing the fight and got a lucky stoppage on a cut. Had that fight gone on, Vitali would have ended up winning a decision. Also, no way in hell Ali would have lost, let alone KO'd, by Oliver f**king McCall in his prime, like Lennox was. Everyone's resume can be scrutinized easily. Some guy born in the 20's will probably tell you Joe Louis's resume was the best and he could probably justify it by shelling out a bunch of names from a bygone era of fighters who were great in that era. Lets just say, I dont think at any point of his life, that Lennox Lewis loses to Leon Spinks. If we plucked a 70 year old Lennox Lewis up in our time machine, I think he would beat the Leon Spinks that beat 36 year old Ali. I do agree, Lennox in his prime was probably one best HW's ever, but not as good as Ali. Prime versions of Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis, and Riddick Bowe would have been the toughest fights for a prime Ali in my opinion. Why Riddick Bowe?? He was an idiot. Just asking, who did he fight? If you are scrutinizing the Klits and Lennox's resume's. Who did Riddick Bowe fight? I can tell you who he didnt fight. He didnt fight Lennox or the Klits. He didnt fight Tyson or Morrison or Mercer. He didnt even fight Razor Ruddock. Holyfield and thats it. Why does Riddick Bowe stand out to you? He had potential, but we will never know how good he could have been. Top 10 GOAT, NO ORDER: Ali, Robinson, Louis, Johnson, Armstrong, Tunney, Ray Leonard, Pep, Greb, and Langford. Not H2H, but based on career, resume, era, etc. The only ones that would be on their H2H are probably Ali, Robinson, and Ray Leonard. What is your criteria? Seems like you are just throwing out popular names from a bygone era because it makes you feel smart or like some boxing historian. Many of those guys were great in their era. If we had a time machine that could go snatch them up and match them up with guys today, some may fare well at lower weight classes, but at heavy, they would get dominated. What we have/had with the Klits and Lennox is unique and has never been seen before in the division. Ali, Frazier, or Foreman would dominate just like the Klitschko's did in the 00's and just like Lennox did in the late 90's. And I can guarantee that none of them would have lost to McCall and Sanders in their primes. Frazier would get easily KO'd because Wlad would be able to drill right hands right down the middle all day. Frazier blocked punches with his face. Look at his face after most of his fights. Yes, he had subtle head movement, but he also took way too much leather. Ali would do pretty much what Haye did. He'd wait for an opportunity that wouldnt come over 12 rounds. he'd get a few touches, but Ali didnt have the power to make Lewis or the Klits respect him. Vitali would treat the plodding non boxing Foreman very much like Arreola. I understand there is no winning with guys like you. You'll call me names and such, but I understand you're love for classic boxing. You probably think the 60's Celtics would dominate the NBA today, or the 72 Dolphins would go undefeated and win in 2012's NFL... Keep your channel turned to ESPN Classic and stay happy... I hate ****tin' in guys like you's cornflakes...

14y ago

Kingdelboxeo

kony....... na bro it was like a creepy thing he came out on pictures that later kids went missing.

14y ago

Ray_Corso

Easily dominate???? Obviously you've NEVER fought!!! Nothing is done "easily" in boxing!! Ali greatness when the blinding speed was gone was a "Will" that others didn't have! It was the greatest heavyweight chin of ALL Time!! The bottom line is that he was smarter than his opponents, he knew how to build false confidences in his opponents then use it to defeat them. To put Vladdy in the same conversation is ridiculous Ali at 25 years old would make a total fool out of that guy, Not in the same class. As far as Lennox, if you could put a heart in his chest that actually enjoyed the sport he could fight in any era but I never believed he wanted to be where he was. He had the body and athletic ability but struggled with maintaining the attitude needed to relax in the ring and force the issue. I don't see any fighters from the 80s to now that could do well in the Ali era, going through Shavers, Terrell, Liston, Frazier, Holmes, Lyle, Foreman, Norton, Quarry, etc I'm sure I'm forgetting more than a few. Who in the latter years after Ali just steps in and runs over these guys? Vladys runs over them? I doubt that these guys came to fight the guys Vladdy fights don't!!! Now is that Vladdy fault? No! But you can't take that guy and move him up in history when he waits and waits to get rid of the bumps he fights and he should come to Vegas and fight every other month against the top 15 heavyweights and give the boxing public a chance to see the Hywt Champ in action on a regular basis. I believe this guy could actually care less about boxing he came out into it like a sportsmen and I think when he leaves he'll be happy to say goodbye. Whatever boxing talents he has gets left behind because he has NO personality and the best champs have that plus attitude that brings fans into boxing, he and his brother are like "cardboard" they couldn't sell tickets to the fire department for a 5 alarm fire!!! Boring!! Ray

14y ago

4Corners

I think this is a great topic! I agree to a degree with the OP. Thats because so many people came after Ali. Ali is a treasure, but not the monster that people make him out to be, especially by todays standards. He fought the murderers row of his day and can be argued as the best up to that time, but we've seen bigger stronger more athletic, faster guys since Ali. If the Vitali Klitschko that fought Lennox Lewis boxed between the years 1960 an 1975, he'd easily dominate the likes of Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Shavers, Holmes, Norton and Spinks. Just becasue guys boxed in a classic era doesnt give them an ability to defy the laws of physics. This is what I call the Paul Bunyan syndrome for boxing. People make tall tales out of guys who boxed decades ago. Vitali, Wladimir and Lennox Lewis wipe the floor with guys from any era of boxing because for the first time in Heavyweight history we have seen 3 guys that stood over 6'5" with the skill, power and athleticism to beat the brakes off of a much smaller crop of heavyweights. All 3 of these guys have the uncanny ability to use their size to where it works their advantages wonderfully. Ali would be reduced to Eddie Chambers or Chris Byrd in this era. Frazier would be a Rahman type. Foreman would be Sam Peter or Chris Arreaola. Introducing Lennox or the Klits to heavyweight boxing is like introducing Wilt Chamberlain to the NBA. Same exact thing. After Wilt, if teams wanted to contend, they got 7footers who were tall and athletic. After the Klits are gone, the next dominant HW will be in the mold of Lennox and the Klit Brothers. The Klits can probably continue to fight well into their 40's maybe later because there is no guy right now in their weightclass that can challenge them. HAahahahahahahaha Definitely the most ignorant s**t I've read in a long time. Why would they dominante Ali's era???? Size???? So because the Klitschkos are 240+, same with Lennox Lewis, theyw ould beat Ali in his prime, who was way way way quicker than anyone either have fought, because Ali was only 210-215. Or because Foreman was only 220-225. Then you must think they'd easily beat Tyson, because he was only 218 lbs in his prime, same as Sonny Liston. Sorry, I don't think Wlad who got knocked out by Corrie f**king Sanders in his prime would havve beaten a prime Ali (64-67). And I don't think Vitali, who struggled to dominate a 37 yr old Lennox would have beaten a prime Ali. And I don't think Lennox who got KO'd by Oliver McCall and struggled to beat a 37 yr old Holyfield would have beaten a prime Ali. Ali hands down has the best HW resume ever, and one of the best resume's in the sport. 3 ATG's in Liston, Frazier, and Foreman, as well as another great HW in Patterson. On top of that, he also had wins over Cooper, Chuvalo, Mildenberger, Williams, Folley, Terrell, Quarry, Bonavena, Mathis, M. Foster, B. Foster, Bugner, Ellis, Lyle, Norton, Shavers, and Young. The fact that the TS said Lennox Lewis is up there with Ali as the greatest HW ever is asinine. Lennox Lewis' best wins were Gary Mason, Tony Tucker, Frank Bruno, Tommy Morrison, Ray Mercer, Oliver McCall, Henry Akinwande, Andrew Golota, Shannon Briggs, Zeljko Mavrovic, Holyfield (past his prime), Michael Grant, Francois Botha, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, Mike Tyson (past his prime), and Vitali Klitschko (lucky cut stoppage). Lennox Lewis is one of the best HW of all-time but his resume doesn't even compare to Ali. 2 of the 3 ATG HW's he beat were past their primes and the other one, he was losing the fight and got a lucky stoppage on a cut. Had that fight gone on, Vitali would have ended up winning a decision. Also, no way in hell Ali would have lost, let alone KO'd, by Oliver f**king McCall in his prime, like Lennox was. I do agree, Lennox in his prime was probably one best HW's ever, but not as good as Ali. Prime versions of Larry Holmes, Lennox Lewis, and Riddick Bowe would have been the toughest fights for a prime Ali in my opinion. Top 10 GOAT, NO ORDER: Ali, Robinson, Louis, Johnson, Armstrong, Tunney, Ray Leonard, Pep, Greb, and Langford. Not H2H, but based on career, resume, era, etc. The only ones that would be on their H2H are probably Ali, Robinson, and Ray Leonard. Ali, Frazier, or Foreman would dominate just like the Klitschko's did in the 00's and just like Lennox did in the late 90's. And I can guarantee that none of them would have lost to McCall and Sanders in their primes.

14y ago

Mr0pal

Oh......ok. You're a child. Now I understand. Carry on. :nana::nana::nana:

14y ago

26_and_Live

i know this is way out from left field but can someone tell me the name of the guy that kidnapped kids its like a documentary there was a thread about it not too long ago some help please kony.......

14y ago

IronDanHamza

You sound like you're about to cry :bottle: I said on a p4p basis I think Ward, Floyd, and Hopkins is better. Does that pizz you off? If so .... :bottle: You give more credit for Ali beating Liston and Foreman than I do. Deal with the fact that I don't praise it as much as you. Also deal with the fact that you agree that he is overrated and stop crying :bottle: Oh......ok. You're a child. Now I understand. Carry on.

14y ago

Kingdelboxeo

i know this is way out from left field but can someone tell me the name of the guy that kidnapped kids its like a documentary there was a thread about it not too long ago some help please

14y ago

Mr0pal

When have I ever said he's not overrated? I've been saying Muhammad Ali is overrated for f*cking decades, mate. From the day I joined this website I was saying Muhammad Ali was overrated in terms of being a Top 5-10 ATG. This is why you're a moron, you bulk of your responses are base off assumption. You think because I refute your backwards, moronic, bullsh*t that beating Liston and Foreman is "nothing to party over" that I'm somehow an "Ali rationalizer" and "the greatest ever". On multiple occasions you have called me things I am literally the exact opposite to. And I did state Ali's Heavyweight ranking. I have him at #2 HW. I have him Top 15-20 ATG P4P. 20 being the lowest. I only responded when I saw your idiotic ideology that what Muhammad Ali has done isn't special. Do I think Muhammad Ali is overrated by most people in a P4P sense? Yes I do. That doesn't mean I'm not going to call out a clueless idiot like yourself making backwards statments like "Ali's chin wasn't tested in 74" and "beating Liston and Foreman is nothing to party over" and "Ward, Mayweather and Hopkins are greater than Ali" You sound like you're about to cry :bottle: I said on a p4p basis I think Ward, Floyd, and Hopkins is better. Does that pizz you off? If so .... :bottle: You give more credit for Ali beating Liston and Foreman than I do. Deal with the fact that I don't praise it as much as you. Also deal with the fact that you agree that he is overrated and stop crying :bottle: :nana:

14y ago

IronDanHamza

Now you're simply struggling to remain relevant in this debate. "Astronomical upset"? LMAO You're trying hard :gay: Pulling off big upsets in between getting your arse kicked does not remove the fact that Ali is overrated. Sorry dude. Oh right. Ali wasn't a huge underdog over Liston and Foreman was he? He wasn't expected to lose by 90+% of Boxing fans and experts? Nice examples, though. They must have been easy to find.

14y ago

IronDanHamza

And in the 70s is when he got exposed as being a notch or two above Frazier and Norton but not DOMINANT and STILL many people think he lost all 3 times to Norton :lol1: Thus confirming my argument that he is OVERRATED The very fact that you have to come up with these redundant excuses, ignore over half of his career, rationalize, and seriously debate somebody who present an argument that he is overrated proves that the charge of him being overrated has validity. You yourself agree that he's not in your top 10 p4p. Did you even mention where he is on a heavyweight p4p? I don't recall if you did or not but your own statements can be used to support my argument that he is overrated. You simply want to argue over HOW MUCH he is overrated which is a strawman argument in relation to the topic. :rofl: When have I ever said he's not overrated? I've been saying Muhammad Ali is overrated for f*cking decades, mate. From the day I joined this website I was saying Muhammad Ali was overrated in terms of being a Top 5-10 ATG. This is why you're a moron, the bulk of your responses are based off assumption. You think because I refute your backwards, moronic, bullsh*t that beating Liston and Foreman is "nothing to party over" that I'm somehow an "Ali rationalizer" and "the greatest ever". On multiple occasions you have called me things I am literally the exact opposite to. And I did state Ali's Heavyweight ranking. I have him at #2 HW. I have him Top 15-20 ATG P4P. 20 being the lowest. I only responded when I saw your idiotic ideology that what Muhammad Ali has done isn't special. Do I think Muhammad Ali is overrated by most people in a P4P sense? Yes I do. That doesn't mean I'm not going to call out a clueless idiot like yourself making backwards statments like "Ali's chin wasn't tested in 74" and "beating Liston and Foreman is nothing to party over" and "Ward, Mayweather and Hopkins are greater than Ali"

14y ago

Mr0pal

Hmm, yet, he fought Liston twice and Fraizer twice when he fought Foreman. And plenty other fighters who could punch. But his chin was untested? In 74 his chin was untested? :rofl: That is just, I can't even find words for that. To no surprise, you can't. That genuinely doesn't surprise me. That you can't name 3 fighters Sonny Liston beat without going on Boxrec. That statment right there just shows how much credibility you have, really. As if this thread alone didn't already make that non-existent. Yeah, you say that now. Now it's happened. Being around then was different. The way Liston and Foreman were looked at was different. But, the vast amount of people didn't expect Ali to get out alive against Foreman or Liston. Let alone Ali actually win, let alone Ali actually dominate, let alone Ali stop them. I didn't ask you to list me some upsets. I asked you to give me an example of a fighter, causing an astronimcal upset, against a Top 10 fighter in his weight class no less. To then do the exact same thing 10 years later. Shouldn't be hard really should it? It's not a big thing to do that is it? Should be dead easy to get an example of something so little. Now you're simply struggling to remain relevant in this debate. "Astronomical upset"? LMAO You're trying hard :gay: Pulling off big upsets in between getting your arse kicked does not remove the fact that Ali is overrated. Sorry dude.

14y ago

Mr0pal

14y ago

LarryX

http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001475809/735572701_NotSureIfSerious_answer_101_xlarge.jpeg

14y ago

IronDanHamza

Ali had proven to be able to beat guys with a big punch by the time he met Shavers. :lame: Hmm, yet, he fought Liston twice and Fraizer twice when he fought Foreman. And plenty other fighters who could punch. But his chin was untested? In 74 his chin was untested? :rofl: That is just, I can't even find words for that. Get off Liston's jock. Without going to boxrec you can't remember 3 guys he beat. :rofl: To no surprise, you can't. That genuinely doesn't surprise me. That you can't name 3 fighters Sonny Liston beat without going on Boxrec. That statment right there just shows how much credibility you have, really. As if this thread alone didn't already make that non-existent. Anybody who expected a guy with Ali's ability to be KOed int he 1st round is stupid, and asking for an exact duplicate upset is borderline retarded but I'll give you some upsets. Max Schmeling KO12 Joe Louis Louis was 27-0, the No. 1 contender for the heavyweight title and a star in the making. Schmeling, a former champion, was considered past his prime and no threat to derail the American's inevitable march to the top. But Schmeling had studied Louis intently and had noticed that Louis dropped his left hand after delivering a jab. Each time Louis threw that punch, Schmeling responded with a straight right. He dropped Louis for the first time in his career in the fourth, battering him for eight more rounds and dropping him for the count in the 12th. In the rematch, Louis knocked out Schmeling within a round. Fritzie Zivic W15 Henry Armstrong Oct. 4, 1940, Madison Square Garden, New York City During the preceding four years, Armstrong had fought 65 times, going 62-2-1, winning the featherweight, lightweight and welterweight crowns, and becoming the first and only man in boxing history to hold titles in three weight divisions simultaneously. He had made 18 defenses of the welterweight crown when he ran into Zivic, a rugged fighter whose tactics sometimes showed only a nodding acquaintance with the rules. In a tough and frequently dirty affair, Zivic dropped Armstrong as the bell rang to end the fight, winning a unanimous decision. Armstrong never held a world title again. Jersey Joe Walcott KO7 Ezzard Charles July 18, 1951, Forbes Field, Pittsburgh When heavyweight champion Charles announced he had signed to defend against Walcott, the media soon dubbed it the "Why?" fight. After all, Walcott had fought unsuccessfully for the title four times, losing twice to Joe Louis and twice to Charles -- the second time just four months previously. This time, however, Walcott came at Charles with aggressive intent, rocking him with left hooks and landing a concluding hook in the seventh that dropped Charles on his face. Walcott would win their fourth encounter as well before losing the title to Rocky Marciano. Kirkland Laing W10 Roberto Duran Sept. 4, 1982, Cobo Hall, Detroit British welterweight Laing's nickname was "The Gifted One," but for all his natural talents, he could sometimes appear disinterested in the ring. Just two fights removed from defeat by 9-7-1 Reggie Ford, he seemed ripe for the taking by "Hands of Stone." But in the upset of the year, Laing outworked Duran for a points win. Laing returned to his mercurial form in his next bout, a KO defeat to unheralded Fred Hutchings. James "Buster" Douglas KO10 Mike Tyson Feb. 11, 1990, Tokyo Dome, Tokyo The mother of all upsets. Only one Las Vegas sports book would even offer odds on the fight, and those odds were 42-1 against Douglas, a talented but underachieving fighter whose previous crack at a heavyweight belt had ended in stoppage defeat to Tony Tucker. But on this night, motivated by the recent death of his mother, he was inspired, using his extra reach to pound Tyson every time the shorter champion shuffled his feet to square up and throw a punch. When Tyson dropped him in the eighth round, Douglas just came back even stronger, blasting him to the canvas in the 10th. The image of the intimidating Tyson groping on the canvas for his mouthpiece and placing it haphazardly between his teeth as he struggled to his feet has become iconic. http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=4905674 There are plenty more outside of this source. The point is that big upsets happen, and the underdog does not automatically become "the greatest". Yeah, you say that now. Now it's happened. Being around then was different. The way Liston and Foreman were looked at was different. But, the vast amount of people didn't expect Ali to get out alive against Foreman or Liston. Let alone Ali actually win, let alone Ali actually dominate, let alone Ali stop them. I didn't ask you to list me some upsets. I asked you to give me an example of a fighter, causing an astronimcal upset, against a Top 10 fighter in his weight class no less, in dominant fashion. To then do the exact same thing 10 years later. Shouldn't be hard really should it? It's not a big thing to do that is it? Should be dead easy to get an example of something so little.

14y ago

Mr0pal

No, I don't. I said, his prime was in the 60's. The majority of his greatness was what he did out of his prime, in the 70's. You know he was a kid then, right? Do you expect him to have an amazing resume by then or something? The guy fought and beat the sh*t out of Sonny Liston when he just turned 22 years old. Oh yeah, I forgot, that's not even impressive is it? :lol1: Who should he have beaten prior to Liston? At the age of 22? I don't make excuses for his losses. Joe Frazier was the better man on the night and I'll always hate the fact Futch pulled Fraizer out in the third fight. Joe deserved and would have won that fight. The same applies for Norton. I had him winning 2 out of 3 and I believe Norton would have beaten a prime Ali too. You're argument of "Ali lover's" doesn't work with me unfortunately, as I am one of the biggest Ali haters on this site. I hate the man. But I certainly respect what he's done and is one of the 15-20 greatest fighters ever and a Top 2 ATG HW. That much is undeniable. And arguments like beating Liston and Foreman are "nothing to having a party over" are just beyond stupid. One of the most ignorant and moronic things I have honesty ever heard. The fact is, despite being close to his prime, he was past his very best in 1970. Just watching him fight you can see the obvious difference. A 3 year lay-off will do that to you. Look at Tyson, as another example. Frazier and Norton could well have beaten a 60's Ali anyway. Right. But; "Ward, Mayweather and Hopkins are greater than Ali" and "Beating Liston and Foreman is nothing to party over" are just so full of wisdom. And in the 70s is when he got exposed as being a notch or two above Frazier and Norton but not DOMINANT and STILL many people think he lost all 3 times to Norton :lol1: Thus confirming my argument that he is OVERRATED The very fact that you have to come up with these redundant excuses, ignore over half of his career, rationalize, and seriously debate somebody who present an argument that he is overrated proves that the charge of him being overrated has validity. You yourself agree that he's not in your top 10 p4p. Did you even mention where he is on a heavyweight p4p? I don't recall if you did or not but your own statements can be used to support my argument that he is overrated. You simply want to argue over HOW MUCH he is overrated which is a strawman argument in relation to the topic. :rofl:

14y ago

MrFactor

14y ago

Mr0pal

Oh really? And that was the only reason was it? :lol1: So how come he wasn't underdog against Earnie Shavers? And the other list of guys he fought he punched alot harder than him? He was underdog against Foreman because Foreman had just destroyed the guys he had problems with - Norton and Fraizer, in 2 Rounds. He was underdog against Liston because Liston had cleaned out his division and destroyed pretty much everyone in his path. Both Liston and Foreman earned the right to be favourite over Ali. They thought George Foreman would catch him and knock out and UNTESTED chin? Really? Untested Chin? In 1974 Ali's chin was untested? :lol1: Get a f*cking clue, man. Seriously. You try and say this momumental feat is something little, it's really not. Again, I'll ask you the same question again you didn't answer; Give me another example of a fighter, being a HUGE Underdog, fighting a Top 10 ATG in his weight class, expected to get knocked out as early as the first round by a large portion of the Boxing community, was the Champion in his Division. And, not only did Ali beat him, but he dominated and stopped him.. Then, a whole 10 years later, does the exact same thing. Please, give me an example of this easy feat. This should be easy, right? Not a hard task. Nothing to have a party over. Ali had proven to be able to beat guys with a big punch by the time he met Shavers. :lame: Get off Liston's jock. Without going to boxrec you can't remember 3 guys he beat. :rofl: Anybody who expected a guy with Ali's ability to be KOed int he 1st round is stupid, and asking for an exact duplicate upset is borderline retarded but I'll give you some upsets. Max Schmeling KO12 Joe Louis Louis was 27-0, the No. 1 contender for the heavyweight title and a star in the making. Schmeling, a former champion, was considered past his prime and no threat to derail the American's inevitable march to the top. But Schmeling had studied Louis intently and had noticed that Louis dropped his left hand after delivering a jab. Each time Louis threw that punch, Schmeling responded with a straight right. He dropped Louis for the first time in his career in the fourth, battering him for eight more rounds and dropping him for the count in the 12th. In the rematch, Louis knocked out Schmeling within a round. Fritzie Zivic W15 Henry Armstrong Oct. 4, 1940, Madison Square Garden, New York City During the preceding four years, Armstrong had fought 65 times, going 62-2-1, winning the featherweight, lightweight and welterweight crowns, and becoming the first and only man in boxing history to hold titles in three weight divisions simultaneously. He had made 18 defenses of the welterweight crown when he ran into Zivic, a rugged fighter whose tactics sometimes showed only a nodding acquaintance with the rules. In a tough and frequently dirty affair, Zivic dropped Armstrong as the bell rang to end the fight, winning a unanimous decision. Armstrong never held a world title again. Jersey Joe Walcott KO7 Ezzard Charles July 18, 1951, Forbes Field, Pittsburgh When heavyweight champion Charles announced he had signed to defend against Walcott, the media soon dubbed it the "Why?" fight. After all, Walcott had fought unsuccessfully for the title four times, losing twice to Joe Louis and twice to Charles -- the second time just four months previously. This time, however, Walcott came at Charles with aggressive intent, rocking him with left hooks and landing a concluding hook in the seventh that dropped Charles on his face. Walcott would win their fourth encounter as well before losing the title to Rocky Marciano. Kirkland Laing W10 Roberto Duran Sept. 4, 1982, Cobo Hall, Detroit British welterweight Laing's nickname was "The Gifted One," but for all his natural talents, he could sometimes appear disinterested in the ring. Just two fights removed from defeat by 9-7-1 Reggie Ford, he seemed ripe for the taking by "Hands of Stone." But in the upset of the year, Laing outworked Duran for a points win. Laing returned to his mercurial form in his next bout, a KO defeat to unheralded Fred Hutchings. James "Buster" Douglas KO10 Mike Tyson Feb. 11, 1990, Tokyo Dome, Tokyo The mother of all upsets. Only one Las Vegas sports book would even offer odds on the fight, and those odds were 42-1 against Douglas, a talented but underachieving fighter whose previous crack at a heavyweight belt had ended in stoppage defeat to Tony Tucker. But on this night, motivated by the recent death of his mother, he was inspired, using his extra reach to pound Tyson every time the shorter champion shuffled his feet to square up and throw a punch. When Tyson dropped him in the eighth round, Douglas just came back even stronger, blasting him to the canvas in the 10th. The image of the intimidating Tyson groping on the canvas for his mouthpiece and placing it haphazardly between his teeth as he struggled to his feet has become iconic. http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=4905674 There are plenty more outside of this source. The point is that big upsets happen, and the underdog does not automatically become "the greatest".

14y ago