If Johanneson loses to Fehintola, Mitchell will probably go for the British title. Otherwise I fear Johanneson's power would force Warren into manouevring Mitchell down the WBU route.
yeah id agree with you there altough i also dont see johanneson losing this one his british title aint gonna be on frank warrens mind while it's wrapped round his waist.
a good fight for kevin i think would be against billy corcoran just to see how he handles him.
many years ago boxing was run by murderers and thieves who had the power to make results happen.
the most famous case of this was jake la motta "going into the tank" against billy fox to get his shot at marcel cerdan.
altough la motta wasnt a mob fighter the scene in raging bull when his brother joey was told "he can beat all the sugar ray robinsons in the world but he aint gonna get a shot at that title, not without us" sums it all up.
sonny lison was also owned by mobsters that is why their will always be conspiracy theories over his fights with ali.
but in todays boxing the only criminals are the sanctioning bodies who rate fighters because they can bring in huge sanctioning fees.
the judges who are wined and dined by a promoter who's fighter they will be judging the next day.
and the promoters who dont make fights for the good of boxing but for the good of their own wealth.
just because they dont wear pinky rings and fedora hats no more doesnt mean they dont exist.
they are just more accepted as part of the game.
i mean in what other sport do you see a champion get beat and still keep his title because the challenger didnt pay the sanctioning body?
Thought Earl lost, wasn't a robbery but thought he lost a close fight.
Mitchell is far from being world class, Eats to many right hands after 5-6 rounds his left hand was to low just like in his last fight. If he goes down the british title route he will lose.
Can you imagine what what Carl Johanneson would do to him, if he dropped his left hand, he would be ko.
id love to see mitchell fight johanneson,
i cant see kevin keeping his left hand at his waist after he tastes some of carl's power.
i think kevin would win but it would be interesting to see how he fights against somebody who has enough power in his right hand to make him box all night.
By their own estimation, BoxRec has only about 5% of the fights from history up on their site, and note that they also put that disclaimer on the bottom of most of those old-time records saying something along the lines of "may be incomplete or inaccurate".
Please don't take those 0-0 records so literally or factually, because the simple truth is that their records are unknown. Even Wilde's record on tyhat site is largely incomplete if you were to go by his & his manager's claim of him having 854 pro fights, and that's from a fighter who's very well known throughout history and has been studied extensively...The urge to research some of these "unknown" small guys isn't a prioriety to many or anybody, so odds are nobody's going to be pouring over the newspapers trying to find an accurate record for them.
i understand what your saying about the 0-0 records and i suppose with the older fighters there is alot lost in time.
as in they could have been some good fighters on his resume whose records just have not been recorded.
i know jimmy was a highly rated fighter so i'll look into his career more and see what i can find.
i must be missing something with jimmy wilde coz i just dont get it!!
fair enough he was british european and world flyweight champion but....
if you look at his record its fairly impressive until you realise how many he fought with records of 0-0-0 or 0-1-0.
fair enough he was the first flyweight world champion but he only defended once against a guy with a record of 0-0-0 and then lost to pancho villa.
i have heard alot about him and how good he was but when talking about the best fighter to come out of wales i'd think first of tommy farr.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=12096
i know he never won titles but he did take joe louis jimmy braddock and the murdeous punching max baer the distance.
even though he was unsucessfull in all 3 fights i doubt that any other welsh fighter has fought this kind of quality opposition and held their own like farr did.
while looking up jimmy wilde i also found this scotsman.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=013797
tancy lee
he won a european title in his fourth fight and ko'd the 92-0-2 jimmy wilde in his fifth fight.
quite impressive for a fighter who finished with a record of 11-7-1.
and for england we have the fearless freddie mills the only man i know of to score 2 first round ko's in 1 night.
check his 7th and 8th pro fight
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=17916
but seriously i dont think any englishman will achieve the feats that bob fitzsimmons did.
for scotland we gotta have have ken buchannan.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=142
if only he wore a metal protector cup against duran he would be more known.
i cant think of any fighters from northern ireland apart from the clones cyclone so i suppose he will.
Good point, my friend.
For entertainment value, have a look at DLH - Gatti, for sure, Cruz - McGuigan, Mcguigan - Pedroza. Benn - Eubank fights, Hamed - Barrera (to see the latter give the former a boxing lesson) and also the Pacman - Barrera, Barrera - Morales fights, and Pacman - Morales fights. All wars. In my opinion, though, none as great as that first Castillo - Coralles fight though.
By the way, if anyone has a US broadcast of Castillo - Coralles I, I'll pay you damn good money to mail me a copy.
Ian
i've got a perfect quality 596mb american broadcast of the fight with ring walks and after fight interviews that i can upload for you.
and it wont even cost you a penny!!
let me know if you want it and i'll upload it tonight and post you link tommorow.
morales has been consistently fighting in title fights since ko'ing daniel zaragoza in 1997.
since then he has picked up wins against junior jones(who barrera couldn't beat) ko4, wayne mccullough, in jin chi, guty espadas jr, paulie ayala, jesus chavez, carlos hernandez and manny pacquio.
which is hardly going the easy way,
morales has traded blows with the best and came out on top his punch accuracy is exceptional.
i know he hasn't had a ko since espadas but if you look at his opposition it's hardly suprising.
altough he has definitley lost a little over the last few years he still has 34 ko's in 48 victories.
the facts dont point to a featherfisted fighter!!!
but they do point to a legend!!!
Molitor won by KO in the 5th round after knocking Hunter down in the 4th, heavily.
Molitor looks very classy. Hunter looked very limited. Molitor could go on to great things.
i've only seen molitor fight once before against booth but he looked very classy then.
he dont have many stoppages on his record tho,
maybe he is starting to show more power as he gets better.
but hunter has always had a dodgy chin.
thomas hauser's books are always worth a read and can delve into alot of subjects.
they seem fact based but also a little opinion based or vise versa.
but they definitley stirr the interest.
his book on rubin carter was both exceptional and impartial,
leaving me wanting to explore the facts more.
HUGH MCILVANNEY is without doubt one of my favoutrite all time writers not just due to his enthusiasm for the sport.
he also has a great knowledge of the fight game,
but most of all his writings almost drag you into the whole experience that he felt.
he kinda makes you feel a little jelous that you were'nt there.
as far as magazine aritcles go i do like jim ryans ryan out loud but...
the best i have read is by an old british writer called ron olver.
not many will have heard of him as he only writes a old timers section for the british boxing news.
but if there is anything about boxing that has gone down in the last fifty years this guy knows a good story about it.
he does have a webpage which im gonna try to find for you guys coz im sure you will love it.
as far as web writing does i think this site has some of the best writers/posters going.
asian sentation writes articles like a pro but still wants to learn more,
he's like a boxing sponge.
in ten years time he will be knowing more than any of us.
i look forward to reading his first published article!!
K-DOGG- i have seen alot of his great posts but only one article,
this guy needs to write more his top ten article was one of the best i've read for ages.
keep it up man.
butterfly1964-this man knows his shit and researches it like a mo-fo,
some of his threads are the most thought provoking ive read.
thers a shit load of others to mention like YOGI, WMUTE, GREYFIST,and others but i dont have the time.
keep it going guys Bscene is the shit.
i've just re watched it and the count does start when liston first touches down.
ali never does go to a neutral corner and it's the timekeeper who tells the referee he was down for 10 seconds.
so the questions are...
how can liston take a dive if their should'nt have even been a legal completed count?
was liston being smart knowing their wasn't a legal count because the ref even let the action continue?
and was the fix going on outside the ring rather than inside it?
either way it was a legitimate kd and a dodgy count so liston can hardly be accused of going into the tank unless...
1) walcott was in on it
2) the time keeper was in on it
in the post fight interveiw liston admitted he could have gotten up but how could he get up and defend himself with ali standing over him!!
also liston was cheered into the ring in maine that night and ali wasn't due to his allegience to the nation of islam.
The 1970 Documentarty AKA Cassius Clay suggests that Liston went into the tank and the mafia had made alot of money. There have been no gaudy bets uncovered to suggest the such.
altough liston was a 'mob' fighter i still dunno if it was because of a betting scam that he stayed down.
as kfotball already said it was a definite legitimate knockdown altough it was a glancing punch.
but when liston is down ali is standing over him taunting him,
the rules state that no count should take place until ali is in a neutral corner.
when ali goes to a corner and liston gets up the fight continues.
but in this fight the referee jersey joe walcot could not control ali and could not remember the count.
it's only after the fights continues that the referee is instucted by an official that liston had been down for more than ten seconds.
so the question that should be asked is where did the officials count start!!
im sure that i remember that its when liston touches down( which im gonna re-check),
if ali wasn't in a neutral corner for the count it wasn't even a knockout.
fact is that ref should not have even been in the ring that night.
the title of the thread still asks did liston take a dive!
and with the illegal count and liston getting up to fight im still wondering if he could have taken a dive?
i know sonny had a dubious past in fights with alledged substances on the gloves againgst ali and zora folley; but...
it all seems a little to much to be planned by a man who was such a wrecking ball in the ring.
liston had pride anger and dynamite in his fists so i still wonder if the fight was maybe even beyond his control.
when all is said and done he would never ever admit to taking a dive(even to his grave) the way la motta did,
and it didn't do any good for his career other than end his chances in title fights.
from what i know i personally dont think he did take a dive but i could understand why others would think he did.
either way r.i.p. charles sonny liston maybe not a good man but a damn good fighter.
well spotted about nat fleischer tho asian sensation i should have noticed that before.
also im sure liston was actually cheered in this fight after ali's change to the nation of islam.
which would give him a little more encouragement to get up and fight.
He beat Morales twice, the 3rd time becaue Morales is a shot fighter, stopped Barrera in 03 and Decisioned Larios coming off a loss moving up 2 weight divisions.
Good, but not close to Floyd, who has been at the top of every division since 130.
i dont wanna piss on your bonfire here but floyd was never the top man at 140!
corley, brussels and gatti dont mean shit when hatton was no1 and cotto was no2 in the division.
theres no doubt floyd was amazing at 130 and 135 when he beat n'dou sosa castillo twice chavez carlos hernandez corrales augustus goyo vargas gerena juuko rios manfredy and genaro hernandez.
he is now the linear champ at 147 beating a shot mitchell judah and baldomir.
but he can never say he was the top man at 140 thats just fact!!
the fact that mayweather jr is anarrogant arsehole is nearly undisputable!!
but so is the fact that he's probably p4p the best in the game.
personally i dont like him but he is a great boxer
if this makes me a hater then so be it!!
just because you respect somebody as a fighter dont mean that you have to respect them as a person does it?
Folks
I know it's an age old debate, but I'm new to this forum, and I really don't fancy trawling through the past pages to see if anyone covered this before.
So, what's the deal? Did Richard Steele stop it unnecessarily? Was Taylor dying on his feet? Was Chavez dying on his feet? Did Taylor look out of it?
I had Taylor well ahead until 12, but Chavez hammered him for 2 and a bit minutes of the last round, and possibly ruined him.
Hung jury...give me your thoughts people
Ian
i suggest you watch the fight again look at meldricks face and look at the punches that where bouncing off his head.
steele stopping the fight early is bullshit he gave him 2 chances to answer him and he didn't.
no matter how long is left in the fight he has to answer the ref after a kd.
if anybody robbed taylor of the fight it was lou duva with his shit advice and childish jumping up and down on the ring apron.
watch hbo legendary nights tale of chavez taylor that should answer alot of your questions.
It was an not necessesary to stop the fight; but given the circumstances....Taylor's lack of response to Steele....it, unfortunately, is understandable.
Duva was climbing onto the apron during the count, Taylor, thinking he was aobut to stop the fight, focussed on Lou, ignoring Steele during a critical moment. Broke my heart for him to tell you the truth.
when he was interviewed for legendary nights duva said his advice going into the last round was dance, dance, dance move, move, move make em believe your mohammad ali in there, have fun in there but dont fight.
then cut to the video of the fight-
lou's advice is;- the fights hanging on this round here mel.
all i could think of when i seen it was WHAT A LYING TWAT.
come on lou be a fucking man and admit that you fucked up!!
i think he owes taylor that!!
I think that you have it partially right. Also to me, Vargas is a fighter that maximized what skills he had. He had some power, a solid chin, and minimal boxing ability. His biggest attribute was his heart. The word "heart" is thrown around a lot in boxing and rightfully so as any man with the courage to step into the squared circle has a certain level of heart. But Vargas was different, he literally subscribed to the idea that you would have to carry him out of the ring before he would quit. To the contrary of your argument I believe his heart propelled him to come forward constantly against Trinidad and suffer a brutal beating. IMO, he would also have had a better career had he simply stayed down in the 1st round against Trinidad rather than soaking up punishment. Also, if Trinidad doesn't commit the most genius/dirty move I have witnessed in championship boxing (the low blow after knockdown) Vargas might have been champ. Vargas was truly a boxer that maximized what ability he had, but just wasn't as talented as the guys who beat him. Even with that talent disparity he still gave those guys the fights of their lives which is a testament to the warrior he is.
even as a big vargas fan i couldn't argue with what you say there!!
excellent post!!
another great article!
i especially like the last paragraph!
The code of the fighter dictates that a boxer be a warrior, ready to give his life in search of success. When a fighter signs that figurative contract with the fans to become a boxer, he agrees to go out and defend his honor until he can give no more. It is the law of the fraternity, and it is expected to be observed by all fighters.
as soon as i read it i was thinking of tommy hearns being carried out the ring like a baby after going through 3 rounds of hell with marvin hagler!!
then at the post fight press confrence smiling with awe at what a great fight it had been!
like i said good article!
just wondering!!!
if floyd was offered so much money to fight margarito and turned it down!!
then why was tony's next move not to make a big money offer to fight baldomir!!
margarito then beats baldomir to become the linear welterweight champion imo!!
giving both floyd's legacy and the public a big interest in seeing the fight made!!
a unification fight with the linear title on the line with the p4p no1 chucked in too!!
so if floyd moves up in weight to fight spinks, margarito would have a legitimate claim to being dodged!!
which would surely tarnish all of floyds achievments at welter!!
i keep hearing about how floyd is ducking tony and to be honest it's a fight id love to see....but!!!
the be all and end all seems to be that margarito while being probably the most worthy challenge to floyd is only a wbo champ!!
while baldomir is a linear champ and spinks a featherfisted bulked up champion at light-middle, both add to floyds legacy!!
as a boxing fan yeah it sucks ass that floyd aint dominating divisions and is hand picking the easiest route to a great legacy!!
but lets be honest here in ten years time floyd aint gonna get no props for beating a wbo champ but he is for being linear champ or for being an alphabet champ in another weightclass!!
it's a shit state of affairs but i cant help thinking that if arum had pressed for margarito to fight baldomir instead of gatti that his claim to being ducked would have held so much more weight!!
hagler was well conditioned and strong for every fight,
but for me his biggest strength was his mental toughness.
he had a deeply instilled will to win,
which was driven by his need for respect and adulation of others.
when a fighter uses the words jail for training camp,
and war for the fight ya know he means business.
and on a sidenote;
sugar ray robinson was not the greatest middleweight ever!!
he was the greatest welterweight of all time!
and probably the best p4p of all time!!!
but even though he won the middleweight title numerous times his best work was definitely at welter.
while we are talking about amateurs tho i gotta give reps to mario cesar kindelan mesa too.
his sister married an englishman who lives in my city,
before he fought amir khan for the third time i had the pleasure of meeting him and getting his autograph.
altough he dont speak a word of english we spoke for about 15 mins about who he liked in the pro ranks.
i was suprised at the way he spoke of joel casamayor as i thought he would respect what his fellow countryman had done.
but he seemed to think he had lost alot and kept saying "no love" "no love"
i have to say i was humbled by his knowledge not just of the fighters but of there styles too.
a true gentleman who i biasedly will place top of the list!!
He was Very talented. But his form of training was dancing the night away, and the only supplement he used was cocaine.
yeah mate but in a thread titled best brit,
talent dont count for shit unless it was used.
laing never used his talents apart from on one night!!
like james buster douglas he showed us all what he could do for one night only.
looking at the list lewis hamed and benn stand head and shoulders above the others.
does witter usually make weight comfortably?
he looks very gaunt in the face!!
and is it just me or does chop chop look like hes been on the fernando vargas training program??
should be a good fight tho!
looking forward to it.
just wondering why kirkland laing is even on the same list as lewis and hamed?
if somebody can tell me what he acheived apart from beating an overweight roberto duran then id understand it.
when were are talking about great amateurs i think we have gotta mention the great felix savon.
check out this guys fights!
http://www.geocities.com/pedrinet/savon.html
he beat some damn good fighters along the way to winning three olympic golds.
and im sure that some of the more knowlageable posters like k-dogg yogi or greyfist. may correct me here but was it not savon who while a possible fight with tyson was being mooted by don king said...
"what is ten million dollars compared to the love of ten million people"