Did Liston take a dive against Ali?

Liston got up and did nothing but take unnecessary shots while not doing a damn thing. I think Liston wanted to stay down but it was getting ridiculous because the count was fucked up. Liston didn't want to get up, he did so because he had had enough of being on the floor. You right that would have looked terribly suspicious. Better question did Johnson take a dive against Willard. I say yes, blocking the sun from his eyes with his arms lol, but why did he wait so long into the fight to do it. Maybe he just said fuck it.

Why would he have gotten up after the long count to continue fighting if he did? It would make no sense. He was scared Ali would be assasinated in the ring though. Liston got up and did nothing but take unnecessary shots while not doing a damn thing. I think Liston wanted to stay down but it was getting ridiculous because the count was fucked up. Liston didn't want to get up, he did so because he had had enough of being on the floor.

Well, did he? Why would he have gotten up after the long count to continue fighting if he did? It would make no sense. He was scared Ali would be assasinated in the ring though.

Well, did he?

i'll tell you a tale asian sensation. me and my dad was over at my grandpas and watched the clay/liston fight.before the fight started i remember my grandpa telling my dad that liston was into junk and was going to take a dive and he was betting on clay. at that time, i was like 12-13 yrs old, didnt know what those terms mean. my sicilian grandpa made his fortune in the late thirties early forties being a bookie ,lets say, working for some associates from chicago in hollywood.years later when i questioned my dad, who was a cop, said that my grandpa wasnt connected but was an affiliate.when i asked him about what granpa said about liston decades earlier my dad tried to backhand me and told me to forget about it. nothing can be substaintiated but i know what i think. I have heard many stories of Liston being into drugs, but many have also said that Liston was dead afraid of needles. There are so many inconsistencies and moving parts to the story than can be properly assessed.

Well, they obvious part is that he clearly wasn't trying to win the fight, he was known for being able to take a shot, and Ali never really had big power. The question here is WHY was he not trying to win the fight. I think the mob was involved like many others here, but that's just my 2 cents.

If Liston wouldn't have shot dope, he'd have had better legs. He might have been the scariest heavyweight of all time if he wasn't strung out constantly. Never pay again for live sex! | Hot girls doing naughty stuff for free! | Chat for free!

the title of the thread still asks did liston take a dive! and with the illegal count and liston getting up to fight im still wondering if he could have taken a dive? i know sonny had a dubious past in fights with alledged substances on the gloves againgst ali and zora folley; but... it all seems a little to much to be planned by a man who was such a wrecking ball in the ring. liston had pride anger and dynamite in his fists so i still wonder if the fight was maybe even beyond his control. when all is said and done he would never ever admit to taking a dive(even to his grave) the way la motta did, and it didn't do any good for his career other than end his chances in title fights. from what i know i personally dont think he did take a dive but i could understand why others would think he did. either way r.i.p. charles sonny liston maybe not a good man but a damn good fighter. well spotted about nat fleischer tho asian sensation i should have noticed that before. Good post. Kinda sums things up. i know it might be abstract to you younguns (mo's & miha's) but youve got to follow the money.there is more involved here than the boxer.thats how life is.in this situation liston had a chance at making more money (paying back dope depbts) loosing than winning.its brutal. i most certainly could be wrong . but years later this is what i have to say. That seems about right. With all the mob rumors none of us know wat really was going down. Liston didnt look like he wanted to get up, and im sure it wasnt just because he thought Ali could beat him.

How could he take a dive when he wasn’t counted out? He was on his feet fighting when the referee stopped the fight.

he took a dive in both fights

i heard liston say he just didnt want to fight ali anymore. so he went down from a light punch and didnt make much of an effort to get back up. basically, he just quit in the first round.

the title of the thread still asks did liston take a dive! and with the illegal count and liston getting up to fight im still wondering if he could have taken a dive? i know sonny had a dubious past in fights with alledged substances on the gloves againgst ali and zora folley; but... it all seems a little to much to be planned by a man who was such a wrecking ball in the ring. liston had pride anger and dynamite in his fists so i still wonder if the fight was maybe even beyond his control. when all is said and done he would never ever admit to taking a dive(even to his grave) the way la motta did, and it didn't do any good for his career other than end his chances in title fights. from what i know i personally dont think he did take a dive but i could understand why others would think he did. either way r.i.p. charles sonny liston maybe not a good man but a damn good fighter. well spotted about nat fleischer tho asian sensation i should have noticed that before.

i'll tell you a tale asian sensation. me and my dad was over at my grandpas and watched the clay/liston fight.before the fight started i remember my grandpa telling my dad that liston was into junk and was going to take a dive and he was betting on clay. at that time, i was like 12-13 yrs old, didnt know what those terms mean. my sicilian grandpa made his fortune in the late thirties early forties being a bookie ,lets say, working for some associates from chicago in hollywood.years later when i questioned my dad, who was a cop, said that my grandpa wasnt connected but was an affiliate.when i asked him about what granpa said about liston decades earlier my dad tried to backhand me and told me to forget about it. nothing can be substaintiated but i know what i think. Sounds like your family history would make a good movie! Mobster gandpa, Cop Father, and naive little you!

Liston may have been a great boxer, but he was certainly a terrible actor, man the way he goes down, laughable. He’d be a razzie award winner had that happened today.

It was Stepin Fetchit. Yeah, who later converted to the Nation of Islam. He was a singer who was generally considered an Uncle Tom. He once boasted that he had a house so big that it was a different time on the other side of it. He lost all of his earthly possesions on a horse bet.

About the anchor punch that dropped Liston, Ali claims that a member of his entourage taught him the punch that he learned from Jack Johnson. Nat Fleischer reviewed the tape and concluded that Johnson never threw such a punch, but that Charley Burley, the early 1900s black middleweight, threw a similar punch. It was Stepin Fetchit.

also im sure liston was actually cheered in this fight after ali's change to the nation of islam. which would give him a little more encouragement to get up and fight. Yep, the Liston-Ali fights were the first time in which there was a difference in culture between 2 black fighters. Ali was considered the "crazy negro", while Liston was considered the "bad negro". They also did the same with Patterson-Liston, where Patterson was considered the "good negro".

About the anchor punch that dropped Liston, Ali claims that a member of his entourage taught him the punch that he learned from Jack Johnson. Nat Fleischer reviewed the tape and concluded that Johnson never threw such a punch, but that Charley Burley, the early 1900s black middleweight, threw a similar punch.

altough liston was a 'mob' fighter i still dunno if it was because of a betting scam that he stayed down. as kfotball already said it was a definite legitimate knockdown altough it was a glancing punch. but when liston is down ali is standing over him taunting him, the rules state that no count should take place until ali is in a neutral corner. when ali goes to a corner and liston gets up the fight continues. but in this fight the referee jersey joe walcot could not control ali and could not remember the count. it's only after the fights continues that the referee is instucted by an official that liston had been down for more than ten seconds. so the question that should be asked is where did the officials count start!! im sure that i remember that its when liston touches down( which im gonna re-check), if ali wasn't in a neutral corner for the count it wasn't even a knockout. fact is that ref should not have even been in the ring that night. Jersey Joe Walcott botched it, he got lost in the confusion. In those days, they believed that a referee's only qualification should be that he can count to 10. Walcott was an underqualified celebrity official. Nat Fleischer, who was the editor of Ring Magazine back in those days, shouted to Walcott that more than 10 seconds had elapsed and Walcott was looking for ANYBODY who could take hold of the situation so he called off the bout. The rule is to start the count when the fighter breaks for the neutral corner, but in all of the confusion the officials botched the job.

i've just re watched it and the count does start when liston first touches down. ali never does go to a neutral corner and it's the timekeeper who tells the referee he was down for 10 seconds. so the questions are... how can liston take a dive if their should'nt have even been a legal completed count? was liston being smart knowing their wasn't a legal count because the ref even let the action continue? and was the fix going on outside the ring rather than inside it? either way it was a legitimate kd and a dodgy count so liston can hardly be accused of going into the tank unless... 1) walcott was in on it 2) the time keeper was in on it in the post fight interveiw liston admitted he could have gotten up but how could he get up and defend himself with ali standing over him!! also liston was cheered into the ring in maine that night and ali wasn't due to his allegience to the nation of islam.