Is Roy Jones in the top 20 all time great?

[LacedUp]

Dude Ali was suspended because of the issue with the draft. He took time out from boxing. You know what I mean and am referring too. Please, I'm trying to watch this Cuse game and talk to you at the same time.

And tell me how "clearly" Ali wasn't the same. What was so clear about it post Ali-Frazier I?

I'm not trying to call you out on anything. It was just because you used the word 'imprisonment'. Anyways, that doesn't matter.

What was clear about it? Did you see his fight vs Ellis after Frazier? Chuvalo, Norton etc. He was much more flat-footed. Didn't dance the same, couldn't dodge the punches he used to be able to.

He just clearly wasn't the guy who floated like a butterfly. Chuvalo stated on a few occassions that he wasn't nearly as sharp in the second fight as he was in the first fight as well - that also may have something to do with Chuvalo taking the first fight on a couple of weeks notice.

[LacedUp]

@ Sugar Adam Ali

How can you say RJJ missed all his big fights against guys like Eubanks, Collins, Nunn, Benn etc, but talk crap about the guys that Roy fought that beat those guys you talk about?

If Roy only beat C class fighters, then what are Eubanks, Collins, Nunn?

It sounds like you would give more credit to Roy for beating Michael Nunn then you do for actually beating James Toney which is completely absurd.

Lastly, all these European fighters you talk about were considered jokes in the 90's. No offense to my British friends on here, but the U.S was the gold standard until the likes of Lennox Lewis, K2 bros, ect in the early 2000's.

The fights you're talking about against Eubanks wasn't really requested the U.S boxing public like the guys that RJJ actually fought. There was no reward for beating a Euro guy back then; no incentive.

This argument is very twisted in my opinion.

Who did Roy beat who beat Eubank or Benn?

[IronDanHamza]

This argument is very twisted in my opinion.

Who did Roy beat who beat Eubank or Benn?

Malinga arguably beat both of them and he demolished him.

[GhostBlade]

Top 10 of the 90s for sure but not of all time.

[IronDanHamza]

No I don't know jones but I have never heard one bad story about him being unprofessional in training,, and yes I will agree that Roy was probably burnt out for the johnson fight... That's the only time I have ever heard of Roy not taking it seriously..

Ezra's Charles was fighting all the time, you can't really compare Roy fighting 2-3 times a year vs Charles that was fighting much more often, vs much better competition


He is shot because he got his arse beat when his athletic traits waned and he didn't have top level fundamentals to fall back on...
And yes fundamentals are skills,, they are the basic building blocks, hence why they are fundamental



Your examples are bad,, Ali slipped and still won major fights but it was a whole lot harder for him

Robinson slipped, retired, cameback and still own titles

Both Ali and robinson were still competing at high levels when on the downhill slide, roy was getting best up by b level fighters
And like I said earlier Ali benefitted from being in the heavy division where there isn't so much top level skills like movement and defense,, had he been in the lower weights at that time he would have gotten beat up by monzon, Duran, napoles, etc. guys like foreman, norton are pretty easy to find in the ring

How so?

All 3 of them relied on their talent and performer considerably worse when they slipped.

Yeah, they had more success because they wernt as shot as Roy but they still slipped and looked much worse and much less dominant.

So are they by skilled either?

[robertzimmerman]

Roy may be in the TOP 5 head to head but his resume is not that great. You need to clear out your division. I know it's hard today but until someone takes out ALL the other belt holders its hard to call him an ATG.

Why you ask? Isn't it obvious that Roy would beat "fill-in-the-blank"? Because upsets happen. Styles make fights. In baseball, football, basketball we always see upsets. In baseball you always have exampes of an average hitter "owning" a hall of fame pitcher (or vice-versa). What if the Green Bay Packers did not face the NY Jets in Super Bowl III due to contract issues? We all *know* that Green Bay would have destroyed the Jets. Right?

Ultimately there were too many excellent contemporaries that Roy Jones did not face. This diminishes him in the ATG standing. The same holds true for Floyd Mayweather and anyone else who doesn't clear out their division.

Case in point - who's the best middleweight? Martinez, GGG, Sturm, Quillin? I think most agree that it's between Martinez and GGG but who knows? They have to fight for us to find out.

You've made some good points. But I have to ask the following question. If Roy had beaten Eubank, Benn and DM etc, would that really have moved him any higher in most people's rankings?

I'm not sure.

[IronDanHamza]

that may be,, but it will always catch up to you eventually like it did Wilfredo... Roy, like foreman, Hopkins, Floyd always led a clean lifestyle


Benetiz never relied on his raw athletic explosiveness that Roy had,,, Benitez had great reflexes and timing,, he wasn't an athletic freak like Roy was



I'm not trying to discredit anyone.. Hill and griffin solid wins.. Ok,, doesn't make you top 20 atg.. If those wins are in your top 5 wins then your not top 20 atg.. Solid wins, ranked guys' but nothing fantastic

Benitez absolutely relied on athletic ability.

You think Benitez could slip all those punches without the reflexes and talent that he possessed?

What explosiveness got to do with it? Surely you're not saying that Roy Jones success was solely down to him being explosive?

Benitez looked terrible as soon as he slipped and was shot not long after. By your logic that makes him not skilled yet you're saying he's one of the most skilled of all time.

[IronDanHamza]

So your saying griffin was an A level hof caliber fighter

That mccallum was prime and not a 42 year old jr mid

That toney was in great shape

And I never said Hopkins was green or too early,, all I ever said about that was Hopkins at the time was a philly club fighter and it wasn't a big fight when it was made, looking back it's a great win

Floyd has had one close fight with Castillo, one time, then clearly beat him in the rematch,,



I have shredded Floyd's resume many times when people say he is the goat or top 10 atg

So basically based on beating toney and Hopkins roy is top 20 atg,,, I don't think he is

I'll ask you a third time, what was the difference between Toney against Jones compared to Toney against everyone else?

[robertzimmerman]

Hopkins was not the best middleweight when they fought. Hopkins became the best in later years. It wasn't until he beat Trinidad in 2001 or 2002 that he was considered the best middeweight around. Now I agree that RJJ beat the best when he fought Toney. But there were a lot who he didn't fight.

Nigel Benn
Michel Nunn
Chris Eubanks
Joe Calzaghe (prime)
Herol Graham
Michaelacweski

A lot of good arguments can be made that he fought X but not Y or that politics got in the way. I understand that. But still - with all these belt holders not fighting each other it takes away from their ATG ranking when compared to earlier years when the title holder was almost always the undisputed BEST in the division.

I was a big RJJ fan. I'm a big GGG fan. But RJJ not fighting Nunn and Eubanks is not good when you make ATG rankings. If GGG doesn't fight Martinez or Quillin or Sturm it will not look good when comparing GGG to other great fighters.

I agree, but there's always reasons as to why great fights don't get made, like you've mentioned.

Eubank openly admitted that he didn't want anything to do with Roy when Roy was at 168. He was happy defending his WBO belt on ITV and Sky.

I think that Roy should have fought Nunn, when he was his mandatory at 175.

A Benn fight was hard to make, because King apparently wanted future options, and Roy's handlers at the time - The Levin Brothers, didn't want to deal with him. King didn't like Stanley Levin, and the feeling was mutual.

A fight with Herol Graham was never viable. Roy had done nothing in boxing, until he split with his Father and signed with HBO in 1992. Roy Snr had wrapped him in cotton wool and made him fight nobodies for peanuts. By the time Roy had beaten Hopkins and had made a name for himself, Herol was in retirement. He didn't fight between 1992-1996.

A fight with Calzaghe also wasn't viable. Joe didn't get his recognition and his respect until he'd beaten Lacy in 2006. When Roy was in his prime, Joe fought in Britain at a different weight class, defending the lightly regarded WBO belt, that wasn't respected or ranked by the likes of the Ring magazine. He didn't fight in America or at 175, until his final year as a pro.

Then there's the whole DM saga that was discussed on here last month. Basically, Roy didn't want to go to Germany, and Dariusz didn't want to go the U.S.

[robertzimmerman]

No, it's what he always used to do: claim he was going to fight so-and-so and then end up fighting some unheralded mandatory. Did the same thing when he stated he was going to fight Jirov and then ended up fighting Clinton Woods in a fight even his own network publicly trashed.

Yeah, but his own network was only prepared to pay him an additional $500,000 on top of what he was getting for Woods. But they were happy in the end, because he fought Ruiz then Tarver.