Is Roy Jones in the top 20 all time great?

[RubenSonny]

Toney was twice the fighter Jones was...but styles make fights and genetically all the boxing knowledge in the world, and Toney has quite a knowledge base....could not give Toney a way to overcome Roys pure physical advantages. Most of Roys later career was spent like Mayweather's: glorified sparring sessions. You don't enter the top 20 that way!

No he really wasn't, this is just idiotic.

[Poet682006]

You know what's driving me nuts right now? Everytime I see "Roy" in this thread I reflexively think "Patrick Roy" and pronounce it like that in my head while I'm reading :hahahaha9:

[robertzimmerman]

yeah these lists kill me! What you want to know about Ruiz though is that at the time he was considered a real failure. People were upset with his style, his manager, and it was thought he was symptomatic of a very weak heavyweight division. All the boxing pundits thought Ruiz was a strawberry....you know ripe for the picking?

I make it a habit to remember these things because people inevitably have elevated Ruiz since that time. Tarver was a lot bigger fish to fry I would say.

Thanks for the reply.

I understand where you're coming from. Ruiz was ugly to watch, and he wasn't the man at HW. He wasn't by any means a great fighter. But he was a genuine HW, who'd beaten Evander, who was past his best, but not completely shot. Ruiz was boring to watch, but his style was effective for him. What impresses me, is that people like Ron Borges thought that Roy had bitten off more than he could chew. Again, I respect that Roy was far more skilled and faster, but he was a 34 year old LHW, that had fought 50 times. Ruiz was 220 pounds, and Roy's natural weight was 168. So it was impressive to me.

There weren't any other LHW's knocking on Ruiz's door back then, and hardly any former SMW's and LHW's have gone up since. Nobody today looks as though they're going to move up. I'm certain that there's guys from SMW-CW that would be capable of beating a Ruiz type fighter. But would they go through with it? You've got to give respect to Roy for going through with it. Ward has talked about it. But we'll have to wait and see what happens.

I agree that Tarver was much more of a threat. Especially with him being a fast southpaw who was unbelievably motivated, plus the fact that Roy had burnt muscle.

[robertzimmerman]

For me, it's about who you beat and at what stage in their careers. He has one great win, against Toney. He has a good win against Hopkins, but he was pretty green at that point.

I personally don't care about the talent you have, if you never tested it against other great fighters, what is the point? Might as well get ready to put Gamboa and Russell Jr I'm the top 50 atg based on their skills

I agree that you have to look at where his opponents were when he fought them. But you also have to look where he himself was when he fought guys, and access all of the circumstances involved.

He fought Ruiz at 34, after having had 50 fights. He dominated him. Ruiz might not have been like a 60's Ali, but he was a top 5 HW. At that stage of Roy's career, that has to be labelled as a great win.

His win over Tarver also has to be classed as a great win. He was nearly 35, and he'd lost actual muscle to drop back to LHW in a short space of time. Tarver was unbelievably motivated, and Roy had got nothing left after 9 rounds. He was running on fumes towards the end. For the first time in his career, he had to overcome adversity. That was a gruelling fight for him against a very good and fast, southpaw.

You've got to give him credit for those wins at that stage of his career.

[billeau2]

No he really wasn't, this is just idiotic.

You have a tendency to argue somewhat rationally and then resort to name calling....Take a little personal feedback bro, it detracts. I qualified what I meant by the statement and will again for your benefitt:

Watching Toney box is kind of like watching a Mongolian warrior ride his horse, or a great Jazz musician. There is such deft skill and creativity. Toney has amazing skills he has brought up as he went through his career. Jones is physically able to do things that Toney and virtually 99.9 percent of the planet cannot do athletically and that is the basis for a good deal of his skills.

If you disagree....so be it, state your position by the way as to why. It helps

[billeau2]

Thanks for the reply.

I understand where you're coming from. Ruiz was ugly to watch, and he wasn't the man at HW. He wasn't by any means a great fighter. But he was a genuine HW, who'd beaten Evander, who was past his best, but not completely shot. Ruiz was boring to watch, but his style was effective for him. What impresses me, is that people like Ron Borges thought that Roy had bitten off more than he could chew. Again, I respect that Roy was far more skilled and faster, but he was a 34 year old LHW, that had fought 50 times. Ruiz was 220 pounds, and Roy's natural weight was 168. So it was impressive to me.

There weren't any other LHW's knocking on Ruiz's door back then, and hardly any former SMW's and LHW's have gone up since. Nobody today looks as though they're going to move up. I'm certain that there's guys from SMW-CW that would be capable of beating a Ruiz type fighter. But would they go through with it? You've got to give respect to Roy for going through with it. Ward has talked about it. But we'll have to wait and see what happens.

I agree that Tarver was much more of a threat. Especially with him being a fast southpaw who was unbelievably motivated, plus the fact that Roy had burnt muscle.

This is what gets me about the cult of Roy: So be it, he beat a decent heavy in Ruiz. Ruiz did certainly have skills...We can overlook the fact he was made for Roy, I can do that....But NO.....you cannot make excuses, or theories about why he lost to Tarver. Tarver exploited aspects of Roy Jones and showed that a good fighter could find a way to compete. It showed a foible in Roy Jones when Tarver was able to land...Burnt muscle had nothing to do with it. The reason Tarver had success was because he did not back off of Jones. Glenn Johnson saw this and did the same exact thing to Roy. Roy was able...to is credit, to get great fighters like Toney to become self conscious about trying to press him. He had Toney embarrassed!

Tarver became "the Brooklyn Dodgers", i.e. the team with nothing to lose" if Jones embarrassed him because nobody expected much. hence he was not self conscious about looking like a fool if he pressed Jones. Now....Did Roy lose a step? especially considering he was against the rope for the famous Tarver missle.....Perhaps. But by the same token nobody would compare that version of Jones with the shell of the man who Joe Calzighe took advantage of. Everyone recognizes that even a half baked Jones would have beaten Joe from Wales to Scotland and back again...

Also Mormeck didn't he come up to the heavies? what about Ademik, even Haye? there have been guys coming up to challenge the heavies. Roy came from a lower spot to do this but it is not unprecedented.

[IronDanHamza]

You have a tendency to argue somewhat rationally and then resort to name calling....Take a little personal feedback bro, it detracts. I qualified what I meant by the statement and will again for your benefitt:

Watching Toney box is kind of like watching a Mongolian warrior ride his horse, or a great Jazz musician. There is such deft skill and creativity. Toney has amazing skills he has brought up as he went through his career. Jones is physically able to do things that Toney and virtually 99.9 percent of the planet cannot do athletically and that is the basis for a good deal of his skills.

If you disagree....so be it, state your position by the way as to why. It helps

I think it's extremely difficult to consider Toney twice the fighter Jones was.

Jones beat better fighters, beat common opponents much much easier and also dominated Toney himself.

Extremely difficult to justify that opinion.

[robertzimmerman]

billeau2,

This is what gets me about the cult of Roy: So be it, he beat a decent heavy in Ruiz. Ruiz did certainly have skills...We can overlook the fact he was made for Roy, I can do that....But NO.....you cannot make excuses, or theories about why he lost to Tarver. Tarver exploited aspects of Roy Jones and showed that a good fighter could find a way to compete. It showed a foible in Roy Jones when Tarver was able to land...Burnt muscle had nothing to do with it. The reason Tarver had success was because he did not back off of Jones. Glenn Johnson saw this and did the same exact thing to Roy. Roy was able...to is credit, to get great fighters like Toney to become self conscious about trying to press him. He had Toney embarrassed!

The cult of Roy? Ha! That made me laugh.

I've not made any excuses for Roy's loss to Tarver. I was giving him lots of credit for his win over Tarver, because it's a fact that he cut muscle, and it's a fact that he was exhausted after 9 rounds, which had never happened in his previous 49 fights. He only took the Tarver fight because he couldn't get any HW fights for the silly money that he wanted. Tarver was unbelievably motivated and Roy wasn't. According to Alton Merkerson, Roy had kept his Ruiz physique in the hope of fighting at HW again. So it's not an excuse to say that Roy fought Tarver whilst not being physically or mentally at 100%. That wasn't Tarver's fault, but that's the way it was.

Now the rematch was totally different. It was 6 months later and he felt a lot stronger and was motivated. He'd hired Mackie Shilstone again, and was in great shape both physically and mentally. You can see that in the documentary titled - Heart of a champion, that followed Roy and Mackie in the build up to the fight. Both fighters came out for the first round, and Roy looked sharp. I thought he was definitely going to win. Then in the second round BOOM! Tarver threw a beautiful shot, and it was all over. There's no excuses whatsoever. People say that Tarver's eyes were shut, but I give him all the credit in the world. Tarver was a very good fighter. The only thing I will say, is that if they'd have fought in 2000, if Tarver had've beaten Eric Harding in their eliminator, I do believe that Roy would have beaten him. That's my honest opinion.

Tarver became "the Brooklyn Dodgers", i.e. the team with nothing to lose" if Jones embarrassed him because nobody expected much. hence he was not self conscious about looking like a fool if he pressed Jones. Now....Did Roy lose a step? especially considering he was against the rope for the famous Tarver missle.....Perhaps. But by the same token nobody would compare that version of Jones with the shell of the man who Joe Calzighe took advantage of. Everyone recognizes that even a half baked Jones would have beaten Joe from Wales to Scotland and back again...

Like I say, Tarver was a good fighter but he's a strange character. He came out for the first fight, and he had lots of confidence, and he caused Roy a lot of trouble. But then he backed off, and ignored Buddy McGirt's advice on numerous occasions. But I believe the first fight gave him a huge amount confidence going into the rematch.

As I've previously mentioned, I can't give Glen Johnson a lot of credit for his win over Roy. I don't think people realise how much psychology plays a part in a fighters performance. Tarver had smashed Roy's aura of invincibility, and Roy took the fight with Glen because it was available, and he wanted to eradicate the loss as soon as he possibly could. He signed for the fight about a month after the Tarver loss. According to his father, Alton Merkerson and boxing writer Thomas Hauser, Roy had hardly trained to his full capabilities. I respect Glen's game plan, but in my opinion, any top 20 LHW would have beaten Roy on that night. He couldn't even win a round. Glen Johnson wasn't a good enough fighter to have beaten Roy 9-0 before knocking him cold. Not under normal circumstances. I've seen all of Roy's fights numerous times, and lots of Glen's fights. Roy looked like a zombie in there that night. Again, I credit Glen for pressing him, but Glen couldn't have beaten Roy at 100%, fighting to his full capabilities in my honest opinion.

Also Mormeck didn't he come up to the heavies? what about Ademik, even Haye? there have been guys coming up to challenge the heavies. Roy came from a lower spot to do this but it is not unprecedented.

You've said it yourself, Roy came from a lower weight class.

Haye was a huge CW, and he went up to HW in his 20's. He's also 6'3.

Mormeck was also a CW.

I like Adamek, and he did fight as a LHW.

But all of those guys are bigger than Roy, and were younger when they moved up. It's not the same. Roy was 34, and he'd fought 50 times. How many other former 160-175 fighters have moved up to HW in the modern era? Not many.

Who at LHW today, looks as though they're going to fight a top 5 HW?

Who else who fought around Roy's weight class looked to fight Ruiz in 2002? It's easy to say Ruiz wasn't great and it was an easy win etc. You've got to respect the fact that he took the fight. I don't like the fact how Toney gets huge credit for Jirov, but Roy doesn't get any for Ruiz.

There's a reason that 5'10, LHW's in their 30's, don't often go up and fight HW's.