Is Roy Jones in the top 20 all time great?

[bklynboy]

Duran's resume is weak yet he is Ranked #8 all time..so why is it ok
for Duran but not Roy?

Duran dominated the lightweight division for 7+ years clearing out the division. He wasn't a belt holder. He was THE MAN for 7 years. Then, in his 30s he goes up to welterweight and beat SRL and is competitive for another 10 years. The last welterweight/middleweight work helps his resume but it's his dominance in the 1970s that makes him an ATG. He fought 4-5 times a year dominating the division.

[bklynboy]

Without a doubt Jones Jr is a top 20 all time great. His athletic ability is next to none (closest being SUGAR Ray Robinson). His power for his small size of only 5'11", matched with that freak like speed made him a one in a lifetime fighter. His loses were hard but his climb to heavyweight and losing one fight (legitimately) till his 50 pro bout makes him an icon. Dude was a monster of epic proportions and an agreement could be made he is a top 10!

H2H he may be TOP 10, but his resume doesn't place him there. Would he have beat Monzon or Hagler? We don't know. But we should have known if he could have beat the best in his division at the time. And since he didn't fight them - we really don't know.

[BigAlexSand]

H2H he may be TOP 10, but his resume doesn't place him there. Would he have beat Monzon or Hagler? We don't know. But we should have known if he could have beat the best in his division at the time. And since he didn't fight them - we really don't know.

At middle, I really have no doubt that Jones could have beat Hagler. Jones was to quick and power would have matched Hagler.

Yes we may not know what would have happened but it doesn't take away that Jones accomplished what nobody had done in over a hundred years and in that puts him in the top 20. The fact he looked invisible to almost everyone until the drop back to light-heavy.

[bklynboy]

I agree, but there's always reasons as to why great fights don't get made, like you've mentioned.

Eubank openly admitted that he didn't want anything to do with Roy when Roy was at 168. He was happy defending his WBO belt on ITV and Sky.

I think that Roy should have fought Nunn, when he was his mandatory at 175.

A Benn fight was hard to make, because King apparently wanted future options, and Roy's handlers at the time - The Levin Brothers, didn't want to deal with him. King didn't like Stanley Levin, and the feeling was mutual.

A fight with Herol Graham was never viable. Roy had done nothing in boxing, until he split with his Father and signed with HBO in 1992. Roy Snr had wrapped him in cotton wool and made him fight nobodies for peanuts. By the time Roy had beaten Hopkins and had made a name for himself, Herol was in retirement. He didn't fight between 1992-1996.

A fight with Calzaghe also wasn't viable. Joe didn't get his recognition and his respect until he'd beaten Lacy in 2006. When Roy was in his prime, Joe fought in Britain at a different weight class, defending the lightly regarded WBO belt, that wasn't respected or ranked by the likes of the Ring magazine. He didn't fight in America or at 175, until his final year as a pro.

Then there's the whole DM saga that was discussed on here last month. Basically, Roy didn't want to go to Germany, and Dariusz didn't want to go the U.S.

All of what you've said makes sense. But how do we compare a belt holder with legitimate competition that he didn't fight with earlier periods where the title holder was almost always THE MAN? We know that Duran was THE MAN in the 1970s because he fought 4x / year and cleared out his division. Yes he fought a lot of stay-busy fights but that's OK. He held the crown for 7 years and took out everyone.

Look at Monzon clearing out the division. RJJ didn't do that - for whatever reason it may be. To me, as a fan, it diminishes his ATG standing.

I think that prime RJJ would be a tough fight for any great and H2H he may well be TOP 10. But by resume he's not there.

[MGMGRAND]

As the TS I think Jones could have beaten any current, or past at 160.

The power, speed, and he could box very well too, just too much for most people.

[!! Shawn]

I'll ask you a third time, what was the difference between Toney against Jones compared to Toney against everyone else?

He has no answer, if you watch the fight it is clear that Toney was sharp and in shape.

They made a big deal about the weight issue as an excuse. Yes Toney probably could have managed his weight better.

Did it affect him as much as people say it did in that fight? No, not even a little bit.

He was out done every second of every round. Weight catches up with you in the later rounds.

[MGMGRAND]

Here's the list.

ATG

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Ali
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Jack Johnson
6. Ray Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Sam Langford
10. Willie Pep
11. Archie Moore
12. Jake LaMotta
13. Joe Frazier
14. Julio Ceasar Chavez SR
15. Roy Jones "Superman" "Yall musta forgot"

[Sugar Adam Ali]

He fought Malinga in the early 90s in not sure what exact year.

Benitez wasn't explosive but what does that matter? Benitez always had habits like that. He slipped when he slowed down and drastically.

Roy Jones was slipping for a whole and showed rapid decline in the first Tarver fight then was done from the second one. He was shot from then onward thar shows nothing of his skill.

How can you say Toney didn't train for Roh Jones? How do you know that? How do you know he was out of shape even?

Toney was not in great shape,, he was very flat,, he wasnt sharp like he was vs mccallum,,, He wasnt a fat turd like he would later become, but i would say he wasnt sharp at all... Looked like how roy looked in the first tarver fight,,, just flat,, His training camp was him losing weight and not getting sharp

Duran's resume is weak yet he is Ranked #8 all time..so why is it ok
for Duran but not Roy?

Dude just stop about duran,,, he is universally acclaimed and fought everyone for over 3 decades

I didn't make any strong claims about where Roy should be ranked, you did. I don't see how Monzons resume is clearly better than Jones anyway.

I actually have monzon and jones fairly close,, monzon is probaly 18-20 ATG and roy is somewhere 20-30,
We are really splinting hairs when ranking these guys

He has no answer, if you watch the fight it is clear that Toney was sharp and in shape.

They made a big deal about the weight issue as an excuse. Yes Toney probably could have managed his weight better.

Did it affect him as much as people say it did in that fight? No, not even a little bit.

He was out done every second of every round. Weight catches up with you in the later rounds.

I dont think its an excuse,,, Toney was not totally out of shape like he was vs rahman 1 or his fights in 2000, or vs tiberi,, but he was not at his best, that much is clear,,, Your right he was outdone every round, and i have even in stated earlier that jones would beat toney regardless, it just would have been more competitive and Toney may catch him late like he did nunn after he was outpointed him..
Toney is about the most unconsistant great fighter ever,,,

Weight losses makes you flat from the beginning,, look at ward-dawson as a recent example, or even canelo-floyd,,, Tarver getting fat from rocky movie, and then spending his whole camp losing weight vs hopkins and looked very flat as well,,,

[LacedUp]

Here's the list.

ATG

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Ali
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Jack Johnson
6. Ray Leonard
7. Roberto Duran
8. Jack Dempsey
9. Sam Langford
10. Willie Pep
11. Archie Moore
12. Jake LaMotta
13. Joe Frazier
14. Julio Ceasar Chavez SR
15. Roy Jones "Superman" "Yall musta forgot"

No Ezzard Charles?

[Sugar Adam Ali]

top 20 atg in no order just 20 fighters

1 srr
2ali
3armstrong
4 srl
5 ezzard
6 greb
7 langford
8 duran
9 hagler
10 monzon
11 manny
12 floyd
13 moore
14 ross
15 chavez
16 sanchez
17 pep
18 mcclarin
19 louis
20 benny leonard

roy is somewhere in the next 20 guys along with hearns, ortiz, johnson, argeullo