Is Roy Jones in the top 20 all time great?

[Sugar Adam Ali]

So how can you list Benitez as one of the most skilled if that's your definition?

I don't understand why skills are only fundementals, why is that?

Roy's lack of fundementals did hurt him when he slipped, just like it did Ali, just like it did Willie Pep, just like it did Ray Robinson even.

But why does that mean he wasn't skilled?

What are fundamentals exactly? Most of the guys you mentioned fight very differently. Why is an unorthodox approach any less skillful than an orthodox approach?



Okay so explain Benitez?

Ruben,, I explained Benitez in earlier post I just made,,,,

Roy at the highest top pro level could just stand and box with guys like jmm or Hopkins or Floyd can do...
Roy needed that athletic edge,, because at the top level he once he slowed down,he didn't have anything to fall back on,,, all he does in fights since Ruiz is: not be able to work off the jab vs top guys, and without having the same explosiveness he can't get his highlight reel combos off, even though his hand speed is still very fast, can't set up combos off the jab and movement like Floyd and Hopkins do, so he potshots and backs into the ropes but doesn't have the slick defense of toney or Floyd to avoid punches and gets lit up, and eventually stopped... That is every single top level fight since 2003...'the exact same thing all 3 times vs tarver, johnson, Hopkins, calzaghe etc

Roy's fundamentals are not good for a top level fighter, yes he is more skillful than journeymen but championship level, his skills don't get him very far without his athletic abiltiy

[Sugar Adam Ali]

so if it's not a KO it don't count?

he did take out griffin and hill in brutal fashion.

Hill wasn't as good as cotto is now,, griffin was a sweet ko, but he is at best a B level fighter, and def not an atg caliber win for a resume..

Samuel Peter crushed jeremy Williams and others but once he faced top guys his power did nothing for him

[RubenSonny]

Benetiz also was winning world titles at an age when Roy was getting dropped by g-man and liles with headgear and big gloves... Let Roy fight the guys that Benitez fought and see how young he was when goes shot... Plus benetiz wasn't right mentally and didn't train or take it serious after he made some money...nth at will always cause a quick downfall... Roy always was very professional

You don't really know anything about Roy outside the ring so you can't speak on that. Roy had been brutally trained from a very young age, so you can't act like he hadn't started burning out, all of that adds up in your later life. His career still lasted longer than Benitez and he was slipping way before the Tarver fight. I guess Ezzard Charles was also not very skilled?

[RubenSonny]

Ruben,, I explained Benitez in earlier post I just made,,,,

Roy at the highest top pro level could just stand and box with guys like jmm or Hopkins or Floyd can do...
Roy needed that athletic edge,, because at the top level he once he slowed down,he didn't have anything to fall back on,,, all he does in fights since Ruiz is: not be able to work off the jab vs top guys, and without having the same explosiveness he can't get his highlight reel combos off, even though his hand speed is still very fast, can't set up combos off the jab and movement like Floyd and Hopkins do, so he potshots and backs into the ropes but doesn't have the slick defense of toney or Floyd to avoid punches and gets lit up, and eventually stopped... That is every single top level fight since 2003...'the exact same thing all 3 times vs tarver, johnson, Hopkins, calzaghe etc

Roy's fundamentals are not good for a top level fighter, yes he is more skillful than journeymen but championship level, his skills don't get him very far without his athletic abiltiy

He's a shot fighter, it doesn't matter if he was the most skilled fighter that's why he doesn't win anymore it's that simple.

[Cinci Champ]

people here mistake skills for resume
that and belt collections, which are good but not the be all end all
not that Roy's resume isn't solid, but he can't be that high
wonder what Larryx will make of this thread :laugh:

ya i agree resume is different it can make a fighter better but if your talking about all out talent and skill you got put roy jones towards the top some where he was almost to good in his prime for his own good

[IronDanHamza]

Ruben,, I explained Benitez in earlier post I just made,,,,

Roy at the highest top pro level could just stand and box with guys like jmm or Hopkins or Floyd can do...
Roy needed that athletic edge,, because at the top level he once he slowed down,he didn't have anything to fall back on,,, all he does in fights since Ruiz is: not be able to work off the jab vs top guys, and without having the same explosiveness he can't get his highlight reel combos off, even though his hand speed is still very fast, can't set up combos off the jab and movement like Floyd and Hopkins do, so he potshots and backs into the ropes but doesn't have the slick defense of toney or Floyd to avoid punches and gets lit up, and eventually stopped... That is every single top level fight since 2003...'the exact same thing all 3 times vs tarver, johnson, Hopkins, calzaghe etc

Roy's fundamentals are not good for a top level fighter, yes he is more skillful than journeymen but championship level, his skills don't get him very far without his athletic abiltiy

You didn't explain it.

You said that Benitez got shot quicker because he turned pro younger.

That doesn't explain how he's one of the most skilled fighters of all time according to your definition because according to your definition, he can't be because when he starting slipping he stopped performing.

Of course his skills got him far. Why do I assume that all Roy Jones had is talent? Roy Jones didn't do what he did solely because of his talent. If he didn't have the skills that he did he wouldn't have been able to do what he did.

You don't absolute dominate James Toney solely with talent.

You're assuming that because Roy Jones didn't perform like he did when he started slipping that he wasn't skilled. That's not the case.

Like I said in the other post, the same thing happened with Ali. Was Ali not skilled?

Was Ray Robinson not skilled?

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Your contradiction still stands though.

How can Benitez be one of the most skilled when he relied on talent aswell?

And when he started slipping, he stopped performing.

I'm not sure if I understand you,,,, Benitez was crafty and did some tricky stuff but he was more conventional than Roy,,,

Benitez didn't start slipping,, he basically stopped training,, haven't you ever heard Tyson talk about him and how he can't stand him because him and his crew stayed with cus d'amato at his compound and trashed the place and didnt want to train...left crap in toilets, never flushed, would pee wherever when they were drunk, left chicken bones all over after eating

[Cinci Champ]

I'm seeing a whole lot of talk here but no lists.

id forget some for sure not even gonna try

[RubenSonny]

I'm not sure if I understand you,,,, Benitez was crafty and did some tricky stuff but he was more conventional than Roy,,,

Benitez didn't start slipping,, he basically stopped training,, haven't you ever heard Tyson talk about him and how he can't stand him because him and his crew stayed with cus d'amato at his compound and trashed the place and didnt want to train...left crap in toilets, never flushed, would pee wherever when they were drunk, left chicken bones all over after eating

He was doing all that stuff in his prime though anyway.

[IronDanHamza]

I'm not sure if I understand you,,,, Benitez was crafty and did some tricky stuff but he was more conventional than Roy,,,

Benitez didn't start slipping,, he basically stopped training,, haven't you ever heard Tyson talk about him and how he can't stand him because him and his crew stayed with cus d'amato at his compound and trashed the place and didnt want to train...left crap in toilets, never flushed, would pee wherever when they were drunk, left chicken bones all over after eating

Roy Jones was crafty and did some tricky stuff aswell.

Benitez was more conventional but he still heavily relied on his talent and ability.

Benitez lacked ethic but he absolutely started slipping and declining very rapidly and when he did he stopped performing completely.

Yet he's one of the most skilled ever and Roy Jones isn't in the discussion?