How would Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano fare against modern Heavies?

[Ivich]

explain to me why Louis, when reffing the Frazier vs quarry fight - seems to be so big compared to a man he's apparently only 1 inch taller than? Why does he seem so big when standing next to Ali and even Foreman? Because he's a heavyweight thats why, who never ate cheeseburgers and did steroids.

since photos matter

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Just a cruiserweight lol

Louis is reffing the 6 ft Quarry and 5 ft 11 Frazier.

that one inch must mean 3

My source is Joe Louis from his autiobiography ,yours ironically ,given you accused me of posting misleading photos, is a photo.Whom should I believe?Joe Louis or a photo?lol If you havent got Louis; book Louis' height on Box Rec has since been amended from 6 feet 2 in to 6ix feet 1 and a half.
NB Louis turned pro weighing 181lbs, Foreman turned pro weighing 219lbs spot the difference? For his 69fights Louis was 200lbs or under in 32 of them.His heaviest for a title defence was his last against Walcott when he weighed 213 1/2lbs..Foreman never weighed less that 213 as a pro and never less than217 1/2lb from when he won the title. When did I say Louis was not a heavyweight? I said he was kod by 2 Cruisers192lbs Schmeling and 184lbs Marciano.
You do know boxers generally put on weight after they retire and age?

[them_apples]

My source is Joe Louis from his autiobiography ,yours ironically ,given you accused me of posting misleading photos, is a photo.Whom should I believe?Joe Louis or a photo?lol If you havent got Louis; book Louis' height on Box Rec has since been amended from 6 feet 2 in to 6ix feet 1 and a half.
NB Louis turned pro weighing 181lbs, Foreman turned pro weighing 219lbs spot the difference? For his 69fights Louis was 200lbs or under in 32 of them.His heaviest for a title defence was his last against Walcott when he weighed 213 1/2lbs..Foreman never weighed less that 213 as a pro and never less than217 1/2lb from when he won the title. When did I say Louis was not a heavyweight? I said he was kod by 2 Cruisers192lbs Schmeling and 184lbs Marciano.
You do know boxers generally put on weight after they retire and age?

I have his book too( Joe Louis). In Joe Fraziers book he states Listons reach is 95 and Bonavena was 220+ lbs. in fighters auto biographies they say anything their beat up brains can think of.

We have footage of Louis reffing the fight with Quarry and Frazier. Quarry is 6 ft, and Louis looks a fair bit taller than him. Louis coulda been 200 or he coulda been 250. Foremans weight literally was 213-260+ at his heaviest.

We need to stop using the scale to determine someones real size. Some people can carry it some can't. What matters is the fighter. Foreman and Norton were very similar on the tale of the tape, nothing similar in the ring though.

Duran and Toney both broke 250 lbs at one point.

I don't understand why Fury is touted as so massive when he's clearly fat as hell. And Wilder has been proven to get down to 212 and still looked over built in his upper body.

[Ivich]

I have his book too. In Joe Fraziers book he states Listons reach is 95 and Bonavena was 220+ lbs. in fighters auto biographies they say anything there beat up brains can think of.

We have footage of Louis reffing the fight with Quarry and Frazier. Quarry is 6 ft, and Louis looks a fair bit taller than him. Louis coulda been 200 or he coulda been 250. Foremans weight literally was 213-260+ at his heaviest.

We need to stop using the scale to determine someones real size. Some people can carry it some can't. What matters is the fighter. Foreman and Norton were very similar on the tale of the tape, nothing similar in the ring though.

Duran and Toney both broke 250 lbs at one point.

So, according to you Joe Louis did not know how tall he was because he was punchy.Are Richard Bak and Chris Mead punchy, how about Randy Roberts is he punchy ?I ask because all three are authors who have written biographies of Louis and all three state he was six feet 1 and a half inches tall ,and so does Box rec are the cmpilers of Louis' record punchy as well?
I don't need to do anything, I've blown bloody great holes through every argument you have presented so far.
YOU need to stop digging because you're in a big hole right now ,and its getting deeper with every new post you make!!

[billeau2]

Ever see Lennox in trouble from body shots how's that? Frazier had quicker hands than Marciano he was also 20lbs heavier,with better head movement. He caught an unprepared Ali, Ali with the rust shaken off reversed that result.Louis was floored by,moderate, arthritic Braddock,floored by fat,short ,slow ,feet stuck in cement Galento and knocked out of the ring by plodding Buddy Baer,I'd pick Rahman to beat them and also Shannon Briggs,Tony Tucker, and Razor Ruddock.
Louis treated Carnera and Baer like punching bags because that's essentially what they were,I'd pick Micheal Grant and Tommy Morrison to beat them! Lewis' chin is a bit underated he took Vitali's shots and remained erect, in fact he faced some of the heaviest punchers of the last 50 years and stayed vertical.Lennox beat Holyfield and any objective observer concedes that.
Holyfield was 215 and 217 when he fought Lennox who was hardly a kid himself at 33 and 34 !
215 was Evander's weight when he stopped Tyson ,and 217 was his weight when he beat Bowe.these are his two best wins! So you can throw that theory out the window!

one can explain away any fighter's wins/losses... With lewis, who I am fond of, he never faced a decent body puncher. Frazier was essentially a one handed fighter... Louis did get caught, but he only stayed down once. Agreed about lewis' chin regarding Vitalie as an example... Holly was a hell of a scalp for sure.

Louis was methodical and consistent. What may seem as a break, like his win against braddock late, was his kowledge and understanding to have patience and know he he (Louis) would get his opportunities... the proof? his consistency. I think Louis was hampered at times by something that hampered many heavyweights: no comparable ATG's in the division... but guys lie Galento could fight.

[billeau2]

Now you are qualifying your statement. Tua was a pressure fighter end of.

He was essentially (not completely) a one armed pressure guy but was not very good at the "pressure." he was slow. Compare him to Frazier, another essentially one armed pressure fighter. Watch Frazier time Ali moving back... etc.

I don't think you are wrong but I think you tend to sometimes overemphasize certain attributes...with Tua? Most ATG fighters could deal with his right and avoid his left. I will concede that watching him early he did fight more with his right.

[billeau2]

I have his book too( Joe Louis). In Joe Fraziers book he states Listons reach is 95 and Bonavena was 220+ lbs. in fighters auto biographies they say anything their beat up brains can think of.

We have footage of Louis reffing the fight with Quarry and Frazier. Quarry is 6 ft, and Louis looks a fair bit taller than him. Louis coulda been 200 or he coulda been 250. Foremans weight literally was 213-260+ at his heaviest.

We need to stop using the scale to determine someones real size. Some people can carry it some can't. What matters is the fighter. Foreman and Norton were very similar on the tale of the tape, nothing similar in the ring though.

Duran and Toney both broke 250 lbs at one point.

I don't understand why Fury is touted as so massive when he's clearly fat as hell. And Wilder has been proven to get down to 212 and still looked over built in his upper body.

If we ever did that here it would be a "come to jesus moment for me!"

What if on another time line... louis team come up with the brilliant (sarcasm alert) idea that to increase his power Louis should not come in so light for his fights? A guy who walks around over 200 Pounds... Could Louis have come in at 210 or so? even more? Yes! His frame supports it, whether it is better, or not... Ditto for marciano.

heavyweights Preferred to come in light... I wish people would understand this... A big man is more than weight. A pitbull is dwarfed by a larger dog, but the neck and jaws... heck Pitbulls do not even have the bite strength of most dangerous breeds!! Its where the weight goes that makes the pitbull "big" and dangerous.

[Ivich]

He was essentially (not completely) a one armed pressure guy but was not very good at the "pressure." he was slow. Compare him to Frazier, another essentially one armed pressure fighter. Watch Frazier time Ali moving back... etc.

I don't think you are wrong but I think you tend to sometimes overemphasize certain attributes...with Tua? Most ATG fighters could deal with his right and avoid his left. I will concede that watching him early he did fight more with his right.

Tua had pretty fast hands ,his Achilles Heel was slow feet.Frazier was quick into range, George Benton was brought in by Futch to give Joe a right hand and he developed a pretty effective uppercut with it, but his power punch was always his hook. How effective Tua was is beside the point he was a pressure fighter which Them Apples initially denied.

[Ivich]

If we ever did that here it would be a "come to jesus moment for me!"

What if on another time line... louis team come up with the brilliant (sarcasm alert) idea that to increase his power Louis should not come in so light for his fights? A guy who walks around over 200 Pounds... Could Louis have come in at 210 or so? even more? Yes! His frame supports it, whether it is better, or not... Ditto for marciano.

heavyweights Preferred to come in light... I wish people would understand this... A big man is more than weight. A pitbull is dwarfed by a larger dog, but the neck and jaws... heck Pitbulls do not even have the bite strength of most dangerous breeds!! Its where the weight goes that makes the pitbull "big" and dangerous.

I don't think Marciano's frame supported the addition of extra weight,he was not only short but ,apart from his legs,quite slight.

[Ivich]

one can explain away any fighter's wins/losses... With lewis, who I am fond of, he never faced a decent body puncher. Frazier was essentially a one handed fighter... Louis did get caught, but he only stayed down once. Agreed about lewis' chin regarding Vitalie as an example... Holly was a hell of a scalp for sure.

Louis was methodical and consistent. What may seem as a break, like his win against braddock late, was his kowledge and understanding to have patience and know he he (Louis) would get his opportunities... the proof? his consistency. I think Louis was hampered at times by something that hampered many heavyweights: no comparable ATG's in the division... but guys lie Galento could fight.

Louis was ko'd twice.Galento couldnt box his way out of a paper bag,he was beaten by moderate fighters some of whom he outweighed by over 50lbs

[billeau2]

Tua had pretty fast hands ,his Achilles Heel was slow feet.Frazier was quick into range, George Benton was brought in by Futch to give Joe a right hand and he developed a pretty effective uppercut with it, but his power punch was always his hook. How effective Tua was is beside the point he was a pressure fighter which Them Apples initially denied.

Ok... So ThemApples initially denied this... He did so on the basis of what we all agree on (slow feet). Frankly? This "Gotcha" IMO subtracts from the fact that you and ThemApples happen to be two of the more knowlegable posters here. Its kind of like the United States getting into a fight with japan right now while China is throwing shiat at China! We need "all hands on deck" in this section right now..." not only do we have posters like Moneyman and War Loon, but if Joshua manages to win... while I am not saying I claim to be particularly kowleagable... but I leave the site.