Tunney Versus jack Johnson who wins and why

[Dr. Z]

I'm aware. He fought McVey when Sam was just 19 and 20, and had less than 10 fights. He fought Jeannette while Joe was coming up, had less than 20 fights and had already lost 3 by the time he fought Jack. He fought Langford when Sam 20 years old and was 156 pounds and stood 7 inches shorter. While they were reduced to fighting one another for scraps, Jack was avoiding them as champion and cashing in on white no-hopers. I don't fault him for making that money and taking those fights. I do fault him for drawing the color line against his own race though, and I feel he is overrated because he never truly gave them their shot once they developed into their prime. He is romanticized and propped up on a pedestal for being the first black HW champion, and rightfully so, but beyond that, he wasn't as great as he is given credit for, and his best wins were middleweights and washed up and/or smaller men.

Was he the first black champion? That depends, Peter Jackson won the World British title in the 1890's. He faced the color line form Sullivan but fought the mostly the best fighter around.


Jim Corbett says he was better than Jack Johnson as does legendary referee George Siler who saw and refereed many of the fighters of the times. He called Peter Jackson " the best black fighter by long odds ", meaning there was a distance between Jackson and Johnson.

[Willie Pep 229]

Was Wills vs Floyd Johnson a fixed fight? I never heard to throwing in the towel in round one!

No clue about that.

Here is Boxrec's take on it.

The bout ended abruptly when one of Johnson's handlers tossed the towel of defeat into the ring. The New Jersey Boxing Commission took no action at first and the fighters were paid. But only a day or two later it barred Johnson from New Jersey rings for life, so he retired to his ranch in the Northwest never to fight again.

[Willie Pep 229]

Was he the first black champion? That depends, Peter Jackson won the World British title in the 1890's. He faced the color line form Sullivan but fought the mostly the best fighter around.


Jim Corbett says he was better than Jack Johnson as does legendary referee George Siler who saw and refereed many of the fighters of the times. He called Peter Jackson " the best black fighter by long odds ", meaning there was a distance between Jackson and Johnson.

Corbett's not a good source to judge JJ by . . . Corbett went 61 rounds to a draw with Jackson, then he had to watch while JJ dismantled his friend Jeffries.

Of course Corbett said Jackson was better. IMO it means nothing. (I hate using fighters quotes as sources, they are always tainted.)

[billeau2]

I'm aware. He fought McVey when Sam was just 19 and 20, and had less than 10 fights. He fought Jeannette while Joe was coming up, had less than 20 fights and had already lost 3 by the time he fought Jack. He fought Langford when Sam 20 years old and was 156 pounds and stood 7 inches shorter. While they were reduced to fighting one another for scraps, Jack was avoiding them as champion and cashing in on white no-hopers. I don't fault him for making that money and taking those fights. I do fault him for drawing the color line against his own race though, and I feel he is overrated because he never truly gave them their shot once they developed into their prime. He is romanticized and propped up on a pedestal for being the first black HW champion, and rightfully so, but beyond that, he wasn't as great as he is given credit for, and his best wins were middleweights and washed up and/or smaller men.

Its easy to explain away a fighter's performances. Its valid to mention these things to a degree for sure. I respectfully disagree that Johnson's performance against the other Black fighters was atypical compared to other fighters. Fighting the other guys young could also be a mark for Johnson... My own feeling is that it is fairly typical. Many heavyweights did not face ATG comp at prime...

Of course he is romanticized, I agree... But he was sure lambasted at times as well.

I do think when we get really lucky and see a division that is full of great fighters at heavy we should really count our blessings. It matters and it is somewhat rare! Jimmy Young might have fought the best competition ever next to Ali... and watching those fights, he should have gotten the nod over Norton and Ali. Yet people seldom notice that at heavyweight this is exceptional.

[QueensburyRules]

Was he the first black champion? That depends, Peter Jackson won the World British title in the 1890's. He faced the color line form Sullivan but fought the mostly the best fighter around.


Jim Corbett says he was better than Jack Johnson as does legendary referee George Siler who saw and refereed many of the fighters of the times. He called Peter Jackson " the best black fighter by long odds ", meaning there was a distance between Jackson and Johnson.

- - By the time Jackson came along to America, JL was doing the theater circuit where he often appeared with Corbett which is where a dispute between the two rocked him out of retirement and the rest history. In his prime, only decent black heavy was ol' George Godfrey, and they signed to fight, but George got wind the sheriff was there and a no show, but JL showed up and was tossed in the clink for the umpteenth time of his life.

[travestyny]

Tunney offered Wills a fight in the press. Wills decline happened sometime before the Sharkey fight. But he didn't look good vs Firpo and he wast too old in that one, and was in with a guy easy to look good against. Tunney would have beaten Wills.

What is your avatar picture all about?

I thought you were talking about Wills vs. Dempsey. I might be getting confused with all of the threads because I could have sworn in one of them you were saying Wills ducked out of a Dempsey fight.

I know that Tunney was offered a fight with Wills also and Tunney's side declined. Said that the armory where it was to be held wouldn't be good enough, or something to that effect.


Your opinion on who wins doesn't really interest me to be honest. We'd have to see it to know for sure.

[travestyny]

Gibson claims Wills ducking Tunney: NY Times, September 7th 1925.

Please remember we are talking Billy Gibson here. A man with a VERY shady history. At times, even screwing over his own guy, Tunney. If Arnold Rothstein sees fit to mention you in his will you know the guy has stink on him.

But never the less he (Gibson) is the one pushing for the fight and Wills' people are using a legal obligation to avoid the fight by claiming an obligation to some Newark promoters, who in turn for some reason are not showing any interest in a Wills-Tunney fight. E.g. Fury's arbitration scam/excuse all over again?

Wills then fights Floyd Johnson in Newark.

Wills and friends IMO reach three-day fish level stink when Wills does make good on his Newark obligation (October 10th 1925) but the fight against Floyd Johnson ends with Johnson's corner throwing in the towel, literally, in the first round. (TKO 2.02 1ST Round).

The State of New Jersey then ban Johnson for live.

I don't know! I have not even the smallest trust in Billy Gibson but on the same note the Wills/Mullins story has a stink on it.

P.S. Wills doesn't fight again for an solid year until Sharkey in October 1926.

P.S.S. Wills fighting Johnson in October (1925) ended the 'outdoor season' and the proposed Yankee Stadium, Tunney-Wills fight, was then definitely off until the earliest Spring of '26.

P.S. In my opinion Mullins/Wills blew there positionong because Gibbons immediately started serious talks with Dempsey/Rickard as soon a Wills refused the October offer. It was as if they just needed to get Wills out of the way by having him refuse the challenge and then went all in on trying to sign Dempsey. I was surprise to find that promoters were making Dempsey-Tunney offers as early as late 1925.

I think the Floyd Johnson slot was the one that was allegedly offered to Tunney when they declined to face Wills at the armory, if my memory serves me correctly. I can pull out the clipping if anyone wants to see it.

[travestyny]

Tunney was known to be very socially conscious... Its actually a mentality a lot of social climbers had in the 1920's... vis a vis The Great Gatsby, the last real vestige of Reified class consciousness calling its chips into the new world lol. Jack London was very similar to Tunney.,. While London was a brilliant guy, Tunney was an autodidact constantly reading and ultimately marrying up, but not particularly bright IMO... Tunney once stated that a man could KO a Gorilla fairly easily lol.

I do believe Tunney's mentality, from what I have read, was to elevate anything he could class wise, at the expense of the Blacks who were also trying to climb out of the lower social class perceptions. How ironic it was that the poorest Blacks and Irish got along famously lol. Both Northern groups had reason to question fighting in the Civil War, Both lived in close proximity... the "Jig" was alleged to be a dance with African and Celtic elements to it.

In a word, the man was a bit of a snob.

Seems like it for sure. I think you've pretty much got him figured out.

[Willie Pep 229]

I think the Floyd Johnson slot was the one that was allegedly offered to Tunney when they declined to face Wills at the armory, if my memory serves me correctly. I can pull out the clipping if anyone wants to see it.

They (the Newark promoters) were offering Tunney the Newark fight?

Yea pull the article . . . I can see how that would be a perfect response, knowing that Tunney-Wills was too big for Newark and Tunney tied to Rickard he would have definitely said no. No way was Rickard going to share a Yankee Stadium gate with two Jersey promoters. The refusual would throw the onus back onto Tunney and Gibson.

[travestyny]

They (the Newark promoters) were offering Tunney the Newark fight?

Yea pull the article . . . I can see how that would be a perfect response, knowing that Tunney-Wills was too big for Newark and Tunney tied to Rickard he would have definitely said no. No way was Rickard going to share a Yankee Stadium gate with two Jersey promoters. The refusual would throw the onus back onto Tunney and Gibson.

The Floyd fight was the one that had Dempsey threatening to walk out of the agreement to face Wills over because they agreed to not fight anyone in that between time, but Wills already had an agreement to fight in New Jersey. Apparently when they were looking for a dance partner, he was willing to face Tunney, at least according to this clipping, but Tunney (or his management) declined. Dempsey then allowed this fight to go forward and I think he even attended....if my memory serves correctly. Ep3rQ6.png