Tunney Versus jack Johnson who wins and why

[billeau2]

I thought of this one realizing it could be a humdinger! so to speak...

There seem a lot of special elements that make this an interesting bout. Both guys had a large tool belt, so to speak, courtesy of totally different circumstances. Tunney trained and learned classical and preclassical technique. He is the only heavyweight I have ever seen who consistently displays elements of both systems... with caveats (get to those shortly). I believe that the Dempsey Tunney fights were underappreciated for what they really were: a watershed historical moment where we got to see the efficacy of two distinct systems of prize fighting.

Proof that the Most High (whatever conceived to be) has a great sense of humor was, despite Tunney "winning" Dempsey ushered in and demonstrated the power of the punch per se! Since Dempsey We saw the epitome of this development with Louis and we saw classical boxing take off. I know that I am a ********** but... if it didn't happen in the heavyweight division, it didn't happen.

Now JJ among other things is our "Caveat." Well before turning over the hand with pronation introduced the jab formally JJ used a jab. JJ was athletic and efficient, using footspeed to close the gap, much like someone like Wilder does today. So JJ had punch selection to spare... He had power, and he was generally defensively responsible. JJ was a fine grappler as well, and could fight inside.

When I ask myself who take this I consider a couple of big and obvious (obvious to me) points: Much like Toney was never going to counter punch Jones because of speed, there is no way JJ parries Tunney, who was a combo guy and an under estimated puncher... To me Tunney controls the "gap" the space that exists between fighters in preclassical times, sometimes called sword length because it is the same 3 feet. JOhnson does well inside, being naturally strong as an oxe lol. Both men are quick, hard to judge who has faster feet, or hands... Both men have power... both men throw all punches... Really tough fight to call!

I give an edge to Tunney but it is slight...

Thoughts?

[QueensburyRules]

- - Quite likely they duck each given their histories.

Gene was willing to fight Wills in a Dempsey elimination, a big stakes fight, so he'd do the same for JJ, but not sure JJ does they same for Gene given his boxing reputation.

[The Old LefHook]

An enraged Johnson was pretty fast when he came after Ketchel, but it was less footwork than a mad rush. Only Clay might exceed Gene's foot speed. Johnson will have to get him when he darts in, and Gene will have no interest in clinching, either, being probably the most intelligent heavyweight champion ever. Two stellar ring IQs who have it figured out beforehand. But someone will likely have to adjust. If Johnson actually knows how to cut the ring off, he could possibly trap Gene in a corner and slow him down with clinch warfare and his bigger punch. Gene is indeed an underrated puncher, but I still think Johnson throws harder when he wants to. For one thing he stands flatfooted more than Gene.

Johnson would love to fight as he usually does. Gene knows this and intends to impose his fight plan, which is the opposite of what Johnson would hope for. Johnson is smart enough to anticipate how Gene will fight. Has he devised some traps and strategies for what he can expect? Probably. He has a distinct weight advantage. He may be able to simply overwhelm Gene the way he did Ketchel in that moment.

[Dr. Z]

Tunney could punch hard when he wanted to. He has 50 knockouts. Very durable ( no KO losses in 80+ fights ) and a master boxer. He'd beat a mostly stationary Jack Johnson who had in inside / holding type of game. Tunney would not stand still for Johnson to clinch him. As an out-fighter Johnson is suspect on film. A very ordinary Moran was the better on the outside, and so was Willard. Watch the filmed rounds. Neither could hold a candle to Tunney as a boxer. A better version of Jack O'Brien who some feel outboxed Johnson is " news draw. "

[GhostofDempsey]

Lesser fighters like Moran, Kaufman and Ross went the distance with Jack. He won’t outbox Tunney from the outside. It would be an ugly fight with Johnson clinching and tying up Gene to avoid his offense and counters. Leaning his weight on him and trying to land on the inside. Tunney would be too slick snd smart for him. Tunney by lopsided decision or late KO.

[Ivich]

Lesser fighters like Moran, Kaufman and Ross went the distance with Jack. He won’t outbox Tunney from the outside. It would be an ugly fight with Johnson clinching and tying up Gene to avoid his offense and counters. Leaning his weight on him and trying to land on the inside. Tunney would be too slick snd smart for him. Tunney by lopsided decision or late KO.

Johnson rarely went for the finish,the fact that many lesser fighters went the distance with him is indicative of nothing.
The fact that you think it is, just indicates how little you know about Johnson.
"Jack Johnson had no trouble winning a 'newspaper' decision over Al Kaufman this afternoon in ten rounds. There was an agreement that no decision was to be rendered if both were on their feet at the end. Johnson landed almost at will, while Kaufman got in only two effective blows. It appeared as though Johnson could have ended the fight at any time." (Associated Press


The Pittsburgh Post did not consider this to be a title fight. Johnson was an easy winner. Johnson sent Ross down for a count of nine in the first round. Ross went down again in the third for a count of eight. In the fourth round, Ross landed his only telling blow of the fight, a vicious right hand that shook Johnson. Johnson battered Ross over the last two rounds. According to Pennsylvania State Law the bout was officially a Draw.

A prime Moran goes 20rds with a 36 years old 221 1/2lbs Johnson and that means something to you?

• The St. Petersburg Daily Times reported the following on June 28, 1914:

The battle was hard fought, but Johnson won easily. Moran was game and stubborn and did most of the leading. Johnson's superior skill was effective and his upper-cutting wore Moran down and won the contest. . . . There were no knockdowns, or anything resembling a finishing blow in the fight. At the close Moran's face was bleeding from a cut under the nose and left eye. Johnson showed no marks.
CLUTCHING STRAWS lol

[Ivich]

Tunney could punch hard when he wanted to. He has 50 knockouts. Very durable ( no KO losses in 80+ fights ) and a master boxer. He'd beat a mostly stationary Jack Johnson who had in inside / holding type of game. Tunney would not stand still for Johnson to clinch him. As an out-fighter Johnson is suspect on film. A very ordinary Moran was the better on the outside, and so was Willard. Watch the filmed rounds. Neither could hold a candle to Tunney as a boxer. A better version of Jack O'Brien who some feel outboxed Johnson is " news draw. "

Tunney has 48 stoppage wins,only 18 of whom are over men above 175lbs

[Ivich]

Tunney could punch hard when he wanted to. He has 50 knockouts. Very durable ( no KO losses in 80+ fights ) and a master boxer. He'd beat a mostly stationary Jack Johnson who had in inside / holding type of game. Tunney would not stand still for Johnson to clinch him. As an out-fighter Johnson is suspect on film. A very ordinary Moran was the better on the outside, and so was Willard. Watch the filmed rounds. Neither could hold a candle to Tunney as a boxer. A better version of Jack O'Brien who some feel outboxed Johnson is " news draw. "

How many heavyweights did Tunney face ?
How many of them were punchers?
Just one, Dempsey who floored him for a long count .

[GhostofDempsey]

Johnson rarely went for the finish,the fact that many lesser fighters went the distance with him is indicative of nothing.
The fact that you think it is, just indicates how little you know about Johnson.
"Jack Johnson had no trouble winning a 'newspaper' decision over Al Kaufman this afternoon in ten rounds. There was an agreement that no decision was to be rendered if both were on their feet at the end. Johnson landed almost at will, while Kaufman got in only two effective blows. It appeared as though Johnson could have ended the fight at any time." (Associated Press


The Pittsburgh Post did not consider this to be a title fight. Johnson was an easy winner. Johnson sent Ross down for a count of nine in the first round. Ross went down again in the third for a count of eight. In the fourth round, Ross landed his only telling blow of the fight, a vicious right hand that shook Johnson. Johnson battered Ross over the last two rounds. According to Pennsylvania State Law the bout was officially a Draw.

A prime Moran goes 20rds with a 36 years old 221 1/2lbs Johnson and that means something to you?

• The St. Petersburg Daily Times reported the following on June 28, 1914:

The battle was hard fought, but Johnson won easily. Moran was game and stubborn and did most of the leading. Johnson's superior skill was effective and his upper-cutting wore Moran down and won the contest. . . . There were no knockdowns, or anything resembling a finishing blow in the fight. At the close Moran's face was bleeding from a cut under the nose and left eye. Johnson showed no marks.
CLUTCHING STRAWS lol

More blah, blah, blah from the drunkard who can never admit when he is wrong. Lol.

Fat little Ross had no stamina and Kaufman couldn’t fight. In fact, when Johnson sat ringside at their fight he laughed at them both. He knew they were easy pickings and no threat to him whatsoever.

Tunney mops the ring with Jack, get over it.

[Ivich]

More blah, blah, blah from the drunkard who can never admit when he is wrong. Lol.

Fat little Ross had no stamina and Kaufman couldn’t fight. In fact, when Johnson sat ringside at their fight he laughed at them both. He knew they were easy pickings and no threat to him whatsoever.

Tunney mops the ring with Jack, get over it.

Oh I can admit when I'm wrong and I've done so on this forum, it's just that you haven't managed to prove me wrong so far!
Can we take it that you admit I'm not a Langford hater?
News Flash. Johnson did not make the fights with Ross and Kaufman promoters did,because they knew black v white contests with the champion being black and would make $$$$$$,
Johnson merely took advantage of the racial prejudice prevalent at the time can you blame him for that?
Yeah ,I forgot who I was asking,of course you can!

Of course Johnson knew he would beat them both easily! What should he have done ? Said I refuse to fight these two challengers for very good purses because they are not in my class? That happens a lot doesn't it? lol

I'd give Tunney a very good chance of beating Johnson ,and saying so causes me no grief whatsoever!
ps Langford turned down a fight with Kaufman.Crucify me for mentioning it!

Ross had no stamina where did you get that idea?
Denver Rocky Mountain News reported that Ross gave the far more experienced Flynn "the fight of his life". Referee E.W. ****erson disqualified Ross for a low blow, but later called Ross "the next heavyweight champion" in his 9/13/07 column. this fight went18rds
Ross's 1911 10rds draw with Jeannette
New York Times and NY Sun. Joe landed more punches but Ross landed harder ones and came on strong at the end.