Tunney Versus jack Johnson who wins and why

[QueensburyRules]

You keep saying this.

How about you showing proof of it, because I'm calling you out as being full of shlt.

When did Wills decline?

- - Rickard talked about it. Sharkey was just a stay busy fight until Jack beats Gene, but both upended sorta like proposed modern Juanma/Gamboa fight that Arum marinated too long until racid.

[billeau2]

An enraged Johnson was pretty fast when he came after Ketchel, but it was less footwork than a mad rush. Only Clay might exceed Gene's foot speed. Johnson will have to get him when he darts in, and Gene will have no interest in clinching, either, being probably the most intelligent heavyweight champion ever. Two stellar ring IQs who have it figured out beforehand. But someone will likely have to adjust. If Johnson actually knows how to cut the ring off, he could possibly trap Gene in a corner and slow him down with clinch warfare and his bigger punch. Gene is indeed an underrated puncher, but I still think Johnson throws harder when he wants to. For one thing he stands flatfooted more than Gene.

Johnson would love to fight as he usually does. Gene knows this and intends to impose his fight plan, which is the opposite of what Johnson would hope for. Johnson is smart enough to anticipate how Gene will fight. Has he devised some traps and strategies for what he can expect? Probably. He has a distinct weight advantage. He may be able to simply overwhelm Gene the way he did Ketchel in that moment.

Great points lefty... No cutting the ring off, no chasing a puncher... Different times different distances. When guys started squaring up, we get these machinations.

[billeau2]

Oh I can admit when I'm wrong and I've done so on this forum, it's just that you haven't managed to prove me wrong so far!
Can we take it that you admit I'm not a Langford hater?
News Flash. Johnson did not make the fights with Ross and Kaufman promoters did,because they knew black v white contests with the champion being black and would make $$$$$$,
Johnson merely took advantage of the racial prejudice prevalent at the time can you blame him for that?
Yeah ,I forgot who I was asking,of course you can!

Of course Johnson knew he would beat them both easily! What should he have done ? Said I refuse to fight these two challengers for very good purses because they are not in my class? That happens a lot doesn't it? lol

I'd give Tunney a very good chance of beating Johnson ,and saying so causes me no grief whatsoever!
ps Langford turned down a fight with Kaufman.Crucify me for mentioning it!

Ross had no stamina where did you get that idea?
Denver Rocky Mountain News reported that Ross gave the far more experienced Flynn "the fight of his life". Referee E.W. ****erson disqualified Ross for a low blow, but later called Ross "the next heavyweight champion" in his 9/13/07 column. this fight went18rds
Ross's 1911 10rds draw with Jeannette
New York Times and NY Sun. Joe landed more punches but Ross landed harder ones and came on strong at the end.

Every era has standards... In the era where this fight takes place no man who fought seriously would lack "Stamina." The pacing of the fight may well be different, but no one could get by without the ability to fight on...

[billeau2]

Johnson fought who he wanted to fight. He chose Ross and Kaufman, laughed at the two of them when watching from ringside. They were easy pickins. He said himself he preferred easier white hopes to tough black contenders and his resume speaks to that as champion. From one side of your mouth you admit they were no-hopers, from the other side you insist they were competitive contenders. Make up your mind drunky.

Ross was 35-22-13, are you really comparing him to Tunney?

I wouldnt hold that against Johnson... Thats a part of professional prize fighting.

[mrbig1]

Johnson is not fighting 158 pound HW. Tunney was very smart and could punch. Tunney 15 UD.

[GhostofDempsey]

I wouldnt hold that against Johnson... Thats a part of professional prize fighting.

I don't hold those no-hoper opponents against him, I hold his refusal to give title shots to Langford, McVea and Jeannette while he was champion against him.

[billeau2]

It's not my purpose to make it racial. But that's what Tunney did himself.

Tunney was known to be very socially conscious... Its actually a mentality a lot of social climbers had in the 1920's... vis a vis The Great Gatsby, the last real vestige of Reified class consciousness calling its chips into the new world lol. Jack London was very similar to Tunney.,. While London was a brilliant guy, Tunney was an autodidact constantly reading and ultimately marrying up, but not particularly bright IMO... Tunney once stated that a man could KO a Gorilla fairly easily lol.

I do believe Tunney's mentality, from what I have read, was to elevate anything he could class wise, at the expense of the Blacks who were also trying to climb out of the lower social class perceptions. How ironic it was that the poorest Blacks and Irish got along famously lol. Both Northern groups had reason to question fighting in the Civil War, Both lived in close proximity... the "Jig" was alleged to be a dance with African and Celtic elements to it.

In a word, the man was a bit of a snob.

[billeau2]

I don't hold those no-hoper opponents against him, I hold his refusal to give title shots to Langford, McVea and Jeannette while he was champion against him.

Keep in mind that all Black fighters at the time had to fight other black fighters over and over... While Johnson did not give a championship bout he fought McVey at least twice and jeanette many more times. Of course he also did fight Langford... I think this gave other Black Fighters certain advantages... Any promoter would be concerned over this repitition because it made it easier to get beat.

[GhostofDempsey]

Keep in mind that all Black fighters at the time had to fight other black fighters over and over... While Johnson did not give a championship bout he fought McVey at least twice and jeanette many more times. Of course he also did fight Langford... I think this gave other Black Fighters certain advantages... Any promoter would be concerned over this repitition because it made it easier to get beat.

I'm aware. He fought McVey when Sam was just 19 and 20, and had less than 10 fights. He fought Jeannette while Joe was coming up, had less than 20 fights and had already lost 3 by the time he fought Jack. He fought Langford when Sam 20 years old and was 156 pounds and stood 7 inches shorter. While they were reduced to fighting one another for scraps, Jack was avoiding them as champion and cashing in on white no-hopers. I don't fault him for making that money and taking those fights. I do fault him for drawing the color line against his own race though, and I feel he is overrated because he never truly gave them their shot once they developed into their prime. He is romanticized and propped up on a pedestal for being the first black HW champion, and rightfully so, but beyond that, he wasn't as great as he is given credit for, and his best wins were middleweights and washed up and/or smaller men.

[Dr. Z]

Gibson claims Wills ducking Tunney: NY Times, September 7th 1925.

Please remember we are talking Billy Gibson here. A man with a VERY shady history. At times, even screwing over his own guy, Tunney. If Arnold Rothstein sees fit to mention you in his will you know the guy has stink on him.

But never the less he (Gibson) is the one pushing for the fight and Wills' people are using a legal obligation to avoid the fight by claiming an obligation to some Newark promoters, who in turn for some reason are not showing any interest in a Wills-Tunney fight. E.g. Fury's arbitration scam/excuse all over again?

Wills then fights Floyd Johnson in Newark.

Wills and friends IMO reach three-day fish level stink when Wills does make good on his Newark obligation (October 10th 1925) but the fight against Floyd Johnson ends with Johnson's corner throwing in the towel, literally, in the first round. (TKO 2.02 1ST Round).

The State of New Jersey then ban Johnson for live.

I don't know! I have not even the smallest trust in Billy Gibson but on the same note the Wills/Mullins story has a stink on it.

P.S. Wills doesn't fight again for an solid year until Sharkey in October 1926.

P.S.S. Wills fighting Johnson in October (1925) ended the 'outdoor season' and the proposed Yankee Stadium, Tunney-Wills fight, was then definitely off until the earliest Spring of '26.

P.S. In my opinion Mullins/Wills blew there positionong because Gibbons immediately started serious talks with Dempsey/Rickard as soon a Wills refused the October offer. It was as if they just needed to get Wills out of the way by having him refuse the challenge and then went all in on trying to sign Dempsey. I was surprise to find that promoters were making Dempsey-Tunney offers as early as late 1925.

Was Wills vs Floyd Johnson a fixed fight? I never heard to throwing in the towel in round one!