True that Hopkins wasn't hit with a flush shot, but he didn't do anything for the first half of the match and that's what cost him the fight. For the first half Taylor was just being the agressor and judges takes note on that. And unfortunately judges aren't "schooled boxer".
This is how i would view it as a judge.
Hopkins is a very low starter so it's easy to take advantage of him early on. This is where Jermain should dominate. Jermain has to be agreesive early and if he isn't effective in his agression, the round has to to go to Hopkins. Jermain's strength is to end the fight early or dominate Hopkins early, not to do very little early on and going into the late rounds with Hopkins and tire out.
I hear a lot people saying the early rounds nothing happened.
Jermain was active but not effective. Hopkins did very little and people award Taylor the round. Why? Because he worked harder and Agressive. Wrong way to score.
Agression and work is pointless if you get nothing done and in my book a losing round because in the end the agressive guy wasn't affective and wasted his energy. He didn't land flush shots and wasted valuable time and energy accomplishing nothing? That plays into Hopkins book, not Taylor's and Taylor got tired from his early round work. If Taylor worked hard and Hopkins seemed uncomfortable or had to work hard to keep Taylor off early on it might be a different scenario.
I don't know till I see it myself but I hope this clarifies some points on how to score the non-Larry Merchant way.
BTW close rounds go to the champ. People have to remember that otherwise ever Joe schmoo would win a close fight. You have to BEAT the champ, to be the champ, not end up in a tie
The whole drunk thing is getting lame.
Anyway, Merchant is the best thing HBO boxing has going for it.
That geriatric old fart is so biased because who does he get paid by? HBO
The guys eyes are so bad he couldn't tell the diffference if there was bird shit on it.
I wish Toney would go up to his ass and punk his ass so the gets a heart attack and dies
Merchant knows shit about boxing and I always noticed he scores close fights really badly. He scores fights commercially, like how an uneducated boxing watcher would.
The fact is he is too old to score fights just like older guys don't box as well because reflexs go down the drain after 40 and vision after 50.
1.) Punching. Merchant thinks the guy landing more punch is better. Not always the case if the punchs don't hurt. He can't seem to distinguish clean punchs to punchs that are ineffective
2.) Ring generalship. Merchant likes guys to go forward and alway bagged on Hopkins, Toney, Mayweather for being counter punchers and going backuwards? Yet he kiss RJJ's ass so much he has RJJ's asshole imprinted on his lips.
3.) Efficiency. Merchant has no idea what this is and never has.
It is very rare for me to comment on something like this, but this has to be one of the most biased posts I have ever read on these boards. The post is so bad that is destroys any credibility in your posts towards Benn or Eubanks. Only beat up blown up guys? Several of his big wins were over opponents that moved up to higher weights. Including Glen Johnson, Syd Vanderpool and Antwon Echols. Robert Allen is a very dangerous middlweight, so was Eastman. I'm no Hopkins fan, but the guy is easily one of top 5 greatest middleweights of all-time. Only Greb, Robinson, Monzon and Hagler rank above him.
JUYJUY is right about Hopkins not fighting competition on the level of the 80's but Hagler fought guys going up to in Duran, Hearns, and Robinson. Nobody bags on him fight those guys. Same case can be made for De La Hoya and TITO.
Another point is Hopkins wasn't a big draw so he couldn't fight the top stars of the 90's. I didn't hear of Hopkins till the late late 90's when Hopins and Kieth Holmes were arguing who was a real Champ and Don King finally decided to make a tourney with TITO in it so he could make all the money. Back then the division was labeled not so deep and is the same today.
I don't think Hopkin is #1 all time middlewight but he is easily #5-10 and isn't in his prime anymore, he is godddamn 40. JUYJUY, I would like to see what you can do to a young in his prime and very big Jermain Taylor.
I like you JUYJUY but sometimes you sound so biased and hurts your credibility because you going around totting Eubanks horn too often.
I dont ever talk shit for grammer, but please, please go back to school. So what your saying is that you are a better judge of a fight then the Judges. If you are why dont you go be one instead of acting like you are one on here. and Anyone that says Hopkins was robbed, only say that cause they are ignorant. Yes it was a close fight. Yes, in my opinion Taylor won. But at no point did either completely dominate the other one. Because guess what? If they did, there would be no argument. No discusion. One would have won by UD not SD.
Judges are not always the most skilled in determining a fight. There is no school for it. There is a lot of personal preference and they make many mistakes and most importantly they can be bought out or forced to favor someone so they can continue you work.
I see a lot of scores judges hand out and there is no way they could even add that score up. They subtract knockdowns wrong, forget how to deduct points incorrectly of forget too, give 9-9 rounds on point deductions for low blows etc., and 10-10 even rounds.
If it's an even round and no one really won it, it should go to the champ, not the guy you like to win, put money on, has been winning the fight etc, or perference in style.
IMHO you have to beat the champ clearly to win. It was that way in the 50's-60's 70's and 80's and the 90's it got murky and now that idea is crap now. I didn't watch the fight, I'll get it about 2-3 days, but from what i hear Taylor didn't really beat Hopkins.
HBO want B-HOP gone because he is hard to work with business wise because he doesn't concede anything on the table even 1%. That may seem like a small number but 1% of $50 million is $500,000. I'd take the 1% any day of the week.
Secondly, B-hop is getting old and having a new champ lined for fights is more ideal.
Watch the fight before you comment on it. And No it shouldnt just go to the champ it should be a 10-10 round. Done Next round.
There is no 10-10 round tie, SON . It's a 9-9 tie round.
Learn something about boxing scoring before you comment on it Rasta. No next round, I finished it and U down for the count..... :boxing:
BTW I haven't seen it but Im saying judges make tons of mistake just like you did.
Yup, they are talking about it on Sportscenter. No way they would have mentioned anything about the entire card without this.
Tony Weeks is a moron. Johnson ate a dozen or more punch and doing nothing. The corner should of stopped it but the last round was were the damage was done.
I heard he actually was dead and brough back by EMT's.
RJJ was caught using roids. Whether it was for injury, gain mass, or to cheat we won't know. IMHO opinion he was cheating. How did he get so big for Ruiz so quickly.
As for Holyfield, I'm not surprised thinking about the supposed heart condition he had, the bad performances after he gained the mass.
I seen and heard tons of roids used in MMA. Being it is an international sport and dozens of organizations, drug enforcement is weak. I seen guys use it to get quick mass and not to get performance, to heal serious injuries, or straight out cheat by getting stronger, bigger and faster. It does give a good boost but doesn't make you superhuman strong.
I've wrestled bodybuilders and guys that use roids, they are strong but not to a level that is amazing. The strongest guys are the ones who are naturally strong by genetics and don't need to work out to get strong.
Byrd's fight today doesn't prove his real skill. Willamson is likea close friend.
Byrd would give Toney problems because he runs a lot and moves very well. Toney doesn't do well with those types. Fight would be like Hagler and Leonard but Byrd doing a lot less offensive work.
Mayorga and Vargas fight is BS. All it does is make Don King money, he really needs to lay his hands off the cookie jar. If Don King wasn't involved i'd wouldn't mind seeing the fight happen. I'd still rather see Vargas and DLH duke it out so one of them can finally retire.
Bob Arum and Hopkins-Taylor. Arum is a flat out liar and lies about his own lies.
Why does Vargas not have a title? Don King bribing his way for Mayorga to get the title and setup a Vargas-Mayorga fight.
Promoters do setup the fights but are the scum of boxing
wow, someone say Hgler has a speech problem.
I talked with him briefly for like 5 mins and he is funny and friendly. I thought he be this tough old intimidating guy like he is in the ring but he's really light hearted. He 's done some acting and shows up to charity events in the early 90's to smooze with rich people. I guess the slurring problem is out the window. Unless you met him in the last 5 years are so.
My pick has to be Archie Moore. Fought Louis, Marciano, and Patterson, and Ali. That is just sick, two generations of champs and 3 guys to reign as heavyweight champs. Lets not forget what he did at Lt. Heavy and beating Joey Maxim.
Michalczewski got so many lopside wins and many fighters complained about fighting in Germany and how you couldn't win a descision in germany with Michalczewski. It happen not once or tiwce but a hand full of times. That was why he remained undefeated so long because they wanted him to retire champ and undefeated. IT was so sleezy. Roy didn't make up an excuse out of his ass, it was the truth. Even though RING had him as the linear champ they mocked DM and called him sleezy too.
It was like people saying RJJ was ducking Reggie Johson for a few years. BS. Johnson was prolong his career by not fighting RJJ and making money for the years he didn't fight RJJ.
I don't doubt RJJ ducked a hand full of fighters and fought rent a cops but DM is the worst arguement you could've brought up.
Tarver is no nemesis! RJJ had his choice of good nemesis out of 5-6 guys in the mid 90's and ducked them to fight a rent a cop(not a full time cop)! That is why RJJ has no nemesis.
Tarver is second rate bum champ. Why? He loses against bums and wins rematches with them. His loss to Glen Johnson proved it! Lost the chamionship to a C fighter and nearly got knocked out in the rematch from a single round of punching.
Tarver got a shot at RJJ because he called the man out in public and embrassed him. I love how Tarver did it at a press conference. Smart move by Tarver.
Tarver still has to fight 2-3 top contenders before he proves he is a champ. He's stills fighting in a division with little
competition. Tarver is a proven loser and will lose again to show how mediocore he can get.
RJJ will fight again. Too much money in Tarver III to pass up.
It's not just bout money, its bout money with the less risk invovled.
Edit: He did beat Toney but Toney was 200 at camp and came late to camp. Toney was dry the first 5 roundsof w hole fight, not a drop of water on his body = signs of dehydration.
Toney would beat roy second time coming
Roy is talented physically but doesn't have the accomplishments to prove it. He was supposed to be stripped for Roids, but wasn't. Wonder how much he paid for that favor?
RJJ will always be in the history books for beating Ruiz for the HeavyW championship. Something he careful planned out. He did beat a tough but unskilled Ruiz who was hand picked by boxing gods for RJJ. If RJJ was serious, he would've fought Byrd instead, then Ruiz. The problem is Byrd has skills but not dangeerous. In the end it would've made RJJ seem not as good as everyone thought he was and diminish his overall career. RJJ fights Ruiz and looks like a boxing god because Ruiz fought the wrong fight and never got a rematch. Ruiz would've mauled RJJ in a rematch. Instead Tarver open his big mouth and got his 5 mins for beating the man. Can someone please get a mic for Tarver so he can challenge Tyson next.
Roy did duck the best fighters in the mid 90's Mccellan, Nunn, Jackson, Benn, Eubanks. It's plain and simple. No need to complicate it. There were many fights he could've had at middlewight or supermiddlewieght. He wasn't the best fighter in either class and jumped ship early to Lt. Heavies to feast on slim pickings. RJJ talks about beating the best but it doens't matter to him. It's about RJJ taking care of RJJ. That is by not getting hurt in the ring and making money fighting a few bums. If you watch his fights you would know it's not about being the best fighter or impressing boxing fans. It was about money with the less risk invovlved. That is RJJ's MO and has been.
Benn and Eubanks were great fighter but JUYJUY, you have to admit, both were reluctant in fighting in the states because of being hand a bad decision. Benn was a bit worried fight McCellan in the states. It happen to Lewis and Sturm recently. Did everyone forget? That is why guys don't fight oversees anymore and it's a shame. I'm not saying the two Brits duck RJJ because they would've fought over in the States. Back in there heads they would have to be think about getting the shaft. That effects the business side of fights as both side jockey on what soil to fight on. Not to complicate things to much, RJJ duck these two as well.
I think that's a legit reason why roy didn't fight DM and DM didn't fight RJJ. Both had weary eyes on each other and being robbed by a bad decision. That's why i think the DM arguement is bad. It was kinda a mutual thing. DM was raised on fighting bums and RJJ on rent a cops. Both undefeated and champs and making good money. These two were of the same breed and saw that in each other. That's why it never happened with both fighters trying to avoid each other and pointing the finger at each other.
RJJ looks unbeatable because of C+ competition. That is why people thinks he so great.
RJJ should'v fought at least one more guy from '94-'00 that was a contender or champ. He chose not to and that his own problem. A problem he can live with seven $$$$$$$'s in his bank account. Boxing is about either making $$$ or beating the best. RJJ is about $$$. I have no problem with that because it's all about the hustle.
RJJ still is a champ and a great fighter but without the major fights he has little to back it up with.
You forgot what happen to Roy in the 88' oylmpics? Robbed infront of the whole world. That's why he won't fight DM because DM figts in Germany and they will favor him like they did in several fights. DM, that guy shouldn't be part of your lead arguement because he is pointless. DM was ducking RJJ for the fact otherwise he fight for a megamillion buck fight in the US but he didn't.
Graciano Rochingiani. Interm champ. It says it all. The guy fights better in the legal ring then the boxing one.
Nunn was over the hill when Roy fought.
Gerald was a freind of Roy's and they would've fought that early into their careers. They wre planning to fight when they made it big to get big fight money. McCellan would've whupped Roy's ass.
Benn was a great fighter but he lost focus and would revert to brawling.
Too dangerous to fight anyways.
Eubanks has great chance at beating Roy. Enough skill, discpline, and talent. I think roy ducked him.
Roy was too young in his career to fight the likes of Eubanks, Benn, Collins. Why risk it? The guy is so rich right now!
If i was Roy i'd be fuck all yeah, I got big money, big house, big yatcht, fast cars, honeys with big TT's and bootys. Whatcha got? If he did your guys way he wouldn't have all that. That what business sense is about.
Roy is smart and doesn't want to be slurring his words and sitting at home with no money just for legacy. He pretend he does but in the end i think for Roy it's about living good.
Roy could've fought a lot of better fighters but when everyone crowns you the best without beating the best I guess take advantage of it like Roy did and fight bums at light heavy and never move up or down.
I knew a guy who trained with RJJ was an amateur in the same gym for years. Both of their reasons for boxing was monetary. Roy was the better prospect and got a "sponsor." My friend went into the Marines and the Gulf War.
RJJ was a investment of sorts, boxing commodity, so he was protected. After the Hopkins and Toney fights RJJ rode the HBO and Larry merchant wave. some put a sock in Merchants mouth already.
RJJ has a ton of atheltic ability, hand speed, and great reflex. He lacks a good jaw, a great defense, tends to rely on single punching too much, and lacks true KO power. RJJ has knockdown power but not knockout power. If RJJ fought any of the top contenders and champs available, they time one of single shots and knock RJJ. Tarver did it and the punch wasn't even hard, RJJ ran into it with his patented left hook. People say RJJ was old but trust me, he was ready and perpped for that fight. RJJ didn't make any excuses. Tarver is not a great fighter, a B+ fighter. Johnson is a C+ fighter and RJJ couldn't keep Johnson off him.
RJJ isn't even the best Lt. Heavy. The Top 10 light Heavies have a good chance at beating Roy. Archie Moore, Michael Spinks, Dwight M. Qawi., Gene Tunney, Bob Foster.
How can you be best p4p pound but not be the best Lt. Heavy in history.
Doesn't add up to me.
I had the fight very close and thought the 117-111 card was out of line.
Toney certainly won that fight but it was Jirov who made that fight!
Doesn't matter who made the fight, Toney looked comfortable the whole fight and Jirov wasn't as effective as his other fights.
Toney looked to counter and was very successful as Jirov was slowly down visibly through and hurt several times. Toney threw to the body just as well as Jirov.
Jirov didn't not land many clean punchs and few clean "HBO power shots" except to the body. Because of the style Toney uses the punchs land on shoulder or his chest and gloves before hitting the face. Takes away the power of the punch.
I still don't agree on the score card. Way off..... You can't get that score for that fight!!
Boxing scoring 101
Max pts in a fight = 120 12x10=120
Jirov Vs. Toney score 117-111
6 point lead is 9 rounds to 3 but thats wrong
Toney's score =117
10x12=120 points total-3=117
Toney gets 9 rounds in a close fight is impossible.
9x10= 90 + (9x3)=117
Jirov's score
10x3=30 + (9x9)= 81+20= 111 - 1 knockdown = 110 The score doesn't even add up right.
Tie round scenario
Toney loses a point and wins 8 rounds
8x10= 80 + (4x9) = 116
Jirov
3x10= 30 + (9x9) = 111- 1KD =110
Jirov wins 4 rounds scenario
4x10= 40 + (8x9) = 112 -1kd =111
Toney gets 8x10= 80 + (4x9) = 116 and 115 if they tie a round
People really need to learn how to add score cards. How can you be a judge and not know how to score rounds
oldgringo quote
"6-4-1 going into the 12th, and 7-4-1 with the KD when all was said and done. "
That doesn't add up moron.
it's 7-3-1 because of the knock down you lose a point so Toney wins by 4 points. Learn how to add rounds before you post how you score a fight. To think you watch it 10 times and didn't see your GLARRING mistake. I saw it in a split second.
I actually think Lennox sounded Canadian.
I respect him but I think he's very over-rated by American's.
That was an unexpected answer but I agree 100%
Unimpressive in his wins, disappointing losses, and cheats by holding his opponents whenever they get close enough to throw a punch. No worse then Ruiz in the holding department. He has a jab and is taller so he doesn't have to grab his opponent as much. You shouldn't be a champ if all you do is jab and move away from the opponent and throw 1 or 2 right hands a round. Especially when you are supposedly the power hitter and the bigger man.
Watch a Tua and Holyfield fight and you won't even finish it. you'll fall asleep or throw it away.
Talk about ducking people, Lewis did it obviously but Steward knew Lewis had no chance against Byrd or Ruiz. With Byrd, Lennox has to chase him and has nothing to grab or hold and look incompetent. Against Ruiz, Ruiz teaches Lennox how to hold your opponent. He's the hold master and trendsetter. Steward knows his stuff and protects his fighters.
Sturm easily has the best jab. He was able to outjab DLH who doesn't have a bad jab either and is a good boxer in his own right despite being in the wrong weight class.
Wright isn't far behind but he doesn't depend on his jab as much as Sturm. Wright use his jab very well but it is not a strong, damaging, or disruptive as Sturm's but can control a fight and is very effective and accurate.
Ike didn't have a great jab. It was more of a distance and rythm finder that would let him setup for combos. It's wasn't damaging or controlling. Kinda like a poking stick
Ummm Toney is a guaranteed lock for the Hall of Fame, and you don't think he's good at boxing? Don't ever post anything again.
Hey, I love James Toney and i have nothing but respect for him and nothing against him. I 100% seen his skills in person at a gym. He beats big guys, mediumm guys, small guys, boxer, brawlers, or whatever gets in the ring with him even with their own game. I'm a big time Toney supporter.
But those are the three things Toney is known too be good at. Go ask him yourself, he ain't that heard to find. He comes in the gym and you can hear him coming in. I ain't dissing him but I'm complimenting on his mic skills. Personally I think James Toney should be a boxing commentator.
Still if it's 10-10 tie thats fine but you should keep it consistent 9-9 tie because winner gets a point, tie means no points = 9-9.
Still it should be 110 score with the knockdown because it's a 10-8 round. I'm sorry for poping my collar. I just get pissed when people score fights wrong.
You remember what happen to Pacman. He got robbed because the judge scored it wrong. That is why I take scoring very important. I was a boxer so I take it very seriously. Evertime a fighter gets in the ring he will get a beating and leave a part of himself in that ring. I think the least we can do is score fights correct and fairly. Hardest thing to shallow for a fighter is a bad descision and only worse when someone scores it wrong and you could win!!!
I see alot of scores like the end of the Toney fight and the scoring was stupid. If it's a judge, it's unexcusable. They should get thrown in the ring and let the two guys beat you. 9 rounds to 3 in a close fight is ridic. The person can't even deduct points correctly. Banned that judge 4 life.
The fight wasn't a tie with a knockdown and deduction. People listen to Lederman too much and he's is a moron and should go to a nursing home and stay there. I swear the man gets back to the home and they give him warm milk and cookies before they tuck him into bed and put on a pair of Depends. Geriatric old fart, I wish I could mute him.
He knows nothing about scoring a fight. He looks to see who lands more shots and a occasional powershot. He always thinks the aggressor is winning. Lederman can only score obvious rounds and close ones he is easily fooled because his eyes can't keep up with the fast action. He can't even see when people miss punches or who throws a harder punch because his eyes are older than the Ming dynasty.
For Jirov to win with two points deduction is ridic with an even round because it's an eleven round fight then. You have to win 7-4 and get knocked two points for 5-4 win. That is a 2rounds for everone in a close fight.
I had a tie round, 7 rounds Toney to 4 rounds Jirov and 2 pts deduced for blow and knockdown. 115-110 Toney in a close fight but easy to score fight.
Looks like a close fight but Jirov throws low blow from frustration. after you will see he is less active, punchers are weaker and have less effect on Toney. Body punchs are fewer and he is getting weaker and Toney is getting more aggresive because of that.
I think RJJ's problem was that he never really had a nemesis which is maybe why he gets this tag of ducking people. Ali had Foreman & Frazier, SRL had Hearns & Hagler etc.
As much as I'm a Nigel Benn fan (and even Eubank on a boxing level even though he was an arrogant tosser! Sorry JuyJuy but it's true!) I think RJJ would have beaten both of them.
Would have been great fights though so a shame they never happened.
So my point is that I don't really think RJJ deliberatly ducked people but he never had those 'huge' mega-fights like others which has unfortunately in a way, tainted his legacy.
RJJ ducked people. Look at G-man opponents vs RJJ at the same time frame.
I know about the Rochigiani and the "interm" label they put on his title when it was a real one. That's why i said he fought better in the legal ring then the boxing. The guy was a chump. The guy could've fought again and beat the geriatric Nunn or a rent a cop. Didn't matter because he never would have beaten Roy to become a champ,so he figured, I make millions in court anyways and be labeled a champ. Win, Win situation for him
Toney kinda of racist, LoL.
He is one but not a bad one.
He'll make jokes about mexicans blacks, whites, asains, etc.
The man has it out for everyone, no one is safe, even a 3 yr kid isn't. The guy has more smack on him than a Mexican Cartel drug LOrd
One thing i don't like about Toney is he takes his arguements too far.
Sometimes he gets into fights outside of gyms and they get heated. It sometimes flows into the gym and guys say they going to bring more peeps over and throw down and Toney talks about pulling out guns and setting it off. I heard a guy got arrested at Wildcard in a fight or argument with Toney. Toney is straight up ghetto.
No, his racist. Flat out but he ain't like a bigot he's just realistic because thats the world we live in.
He make jokes about mexican pickin strawberries and running the border jokes to mexican boxers or tells them if they don't spar with him and they duck him he'll call imigrantion so they have sometihing else to duck. Talks about cotton pick ******s and has a ton of chicken head jokes about black girls or his whigger jokes about enimem wannabe's and makes fun of white people walking around with butt plugs. He has a couple of asian one about calculating numbers to be better boxers that i didn't like but was funny.
Sorry about the vid and how some of you can't get it... I can't download it so I can't send it to a host.
To bad because Toney is hilarious again and I can't wait till he lays down another whupping in the ring.