I believe he’s 1-4 against Hearns Hagler SRL.. He couldn’t handle them 3 American boys and by todays standards he beat a green and inexperienced SRL according to those who ranked Floyd’s win over Canelo. The second fight with SRL he quit. The third fight was one of the worse fights in boxing history. Got knocked out cold by Hearns in less than 5mins. When speaking of his resume his fans usually use his split decision win of Iran Barkley as one of his best wins. People tend to overrate things of the past due to nostalgia. If he were an American in this era his resume would be picked apart by critics.
You’re probably right about the difference if Duran were American, though I am unsure why critics treat him differently. What is Roberto Duran’s appeal after all these years, exactly? I mean, clearly he was a great fighter (witness his work as a lightweight) but nowhere near the best of his era. After his loss to Leonard, he won two fights of consequence, and neither of the opponents were close to elite. His post-prime was far longer than his actual prime.
Was it because he was uncompromisingly masculine? In what way? His cruel, sneering mockery of his opponents in victory, his sulking bitterness in defeat? His surrender in the biggest fight of his life? His gluttony and laziness, which caused him to be out of shape in some of the biggest fights of his career, effectively conceding the fights before they even began? Clearly Duran was a man who, at times, preferred to self-sabotage and lose, rather than put in the work and risk losing at his best.
Frankly, I wonder if Duran’s politics, which were generally anti-American, is what makes him appeal to American journalists. These are the same people, after all, who let Muhammad Ali get away with saying the most outrageous things, because they agreed with his politics and his social outlook. Maybe that’s the reason why Duran is remembered so fondly today. I am not sure.
Duran is an ATG, and is overrated. He was at his best at lightweight…because he didn’t have to fight Benitez, Leonard, Hearns, and Hagler. Leonard and Benitez didn’t beat him based on size or power - Duran hit harder than both of them put together. Duran just didn’t know how to fight defensively responsible, constantly moving opponents. He was at a loss.
Also, has nothing to do with his fighting skills…but he was a real jerk. A classic bully, he crudely mocked and cursed his opponents, and was utterly graceless and sulking in defeat. He was gluttonous and lazy, and did not possess a work ethic matching his talent. He quit in the most important fight of his life. Not because his life or health was in danger, but because he was a bully and feared failure, and quit to avoid it.
As i said before, he was an ATG, if only because of his early body of work. But he is not the greatest fighter of his era, which many for some reason claim. The idea that he would have beaten Mayweather is laughable. Mayweather made an entire career off beating overly aggressive, easily frustrated and confused fighters.
A larger question. I have never understood why people seem to like Ricky Hatton so much. In the interviews I’ve seen, he never seems personable, pleasant, or humble. Yet working class British fans adored him as if he were some sort of working class Messiah. I don’t see the appeal.
Maybe there is some part of him that I haven’t seen, having only watched him during fight build ups?
So by your Logic Manny Pacquiao is a PED user correct ? He couldn’t even hurt a 112 lber flyweight in Sangsurat yet here he is dropping 147lber welterweights like Bradley and Thurman
Oh I think you’re probably right.
Bob is not a racist.
He simply comes from an era and a background where he finds it difficult to promote a black fighter and so black fighters on his stable are usually placed on the back burner and the lighter skinned fighters are made into superstars.
Nonsense. There are a myriad of possible explanations.
Within the UK he is an ATG though. I'm not saying he is in overall boxing history but as far British boxing history? he is one of the most successful UK HWs ever and probably the biggest domestic star/draw ever too.
Well as far as the UK was concerned he was the second coming of Joe Louis. He was a huge draw, and that’s fine for him, but he is a solid but unspectacular fighter. Britain simultaneously hyped and protects its athletes, in other sports too. It’s weird. I don’t see how he stands up to Lennox zLrwis, however.
I don't know why people rated AJ so highly in the first place i've never understood it, he has never looked GREAT or worthy of number 1 spot i always ask this question not even as a hater just genuine. Who has AJ beaten in their prime? i can legit only think of Whyte/Parker who were never that great anyway. Beating 40 + year old "names/ghosts/shadows" doesn't entitle you to number 1 in the division.
I agree. I think Joshua “looks” like everyone thinks the HW champ is supposed to look, with a physique like Michelangelo’s David. Joshua has fairly light feet for a man his size. His power, however, while solid, is no better than you would expect for a 250 pound boxer in his prime of life. However, he has been told that his power is his greatest attribute, which is clearly not true and causes him to take chances and expose himself to punches that he shouldn’t take. He is capable of making adjustments, moving his feet, and using his jab effectively as a big man should. He showed this in the Ruiz and Usyk rematches.
But he clearly has limitations. He is not unusually fast or tricky. His chin is poor and will only get worse. I doubt this has anything to do with his training or his will to fight. It’s just his physiology. I doubt there is much he can do about it. Even in fights that he wins, his legs get buckled at least a couple of times.
In other words, he is a good but not great fighter. But he was hailed in Britain as an all-time great. For some reason the UK does this with their athletes. Had he and Wilder fought five years ago as they should have, Wilder would have knocked him out completely. Today, Joshua probably would move more and would make the fight interesting, possibly a decision. Tyson Fury will beat him badly if they ever fight.
How was he protected? protected is Wilder going 9 years, 39 fights and 6 title defences without fighting a single elite opponent. Out of the "big 3" of HW ie AJ, Fury, Wilder its the American who took the least risks in his career, and yet hes had the most fights and been around the longest.
The whole "Britain hypes its athletes" thing always cracks me up too. Because all it really means is they give a **** about boxing over there and will actually turn up to support their fighters. Thats a good thing. Boxing would be even less relevant than it currently is if it wasnt for the UK carrying more than its fair share of the sports remaining popularity.
I agree, Wilder was absolutely protected for a long time. He did fight Ortiz twice when most of the rest of the division wouldn’t even k ce, but I agree much of Wilder’s career has been against unspectacular opposition.
Regarding Joshua - he was paid and hyped as if he were an ATG, but he never was. Ricky Hatton was the same way. You see it in track as well, as athletes are well paid in Britain but less impressive internationally.
The amount of butthurt-ness Is through the roof. You can tell alot of people thought ggg would pull it off or atleast make it competitive again. Now they're scrambling for excuses like they always do and finding anything to discredit canelo.
Personally never thought GGG would win. Canelo is an all time great, but this is not Canelo’s finest hour or anything. He beat a 40 year old who probably should retire.
Anyone remember the scam Poll which Mayweather did on his twitter in 2014 asking fans whom would they choose as his next opponent between Marcos Maidana and Amir Khan? People chose Amir Khan and he was the clear winner of that poll. What did Mayweather do next? He went (against) that very Poll and people's choice and went on to fight Marcos Maidana instead clearly going against his word and people's choice??
The Worst part is that Mayweather received little to no backlash from the American media as Khan was the British fighter. Mayweather got away with fighting a limited slower opponent when clearly real fans know that Khan with his speed would have been the more challenging stylistic fight for Mayweather.
Mayweather throughout his career has fought slower sluggish opponents apart from Zab Juddah a fight where he struggled massively agaisnt Speed, and only fought Manny Pacquiao when Pacquiao was at the near end of his career.
Lets make no mistake about it , Mayweather is a great champion fighter and has a proven legacy but that Poll thing was a true embarrassment going against his word and a slap on the face of BOXING FANS, I don't understand why people chose to ignore this part???
PS: Mods can you please add a poll to this one?
1)Yes, he ducked Amir Khan.
2)No he did not duck Amir Khan, Maidana was the better choice.
Yet Maidana probably was Mayweather’s hardest fight since DLH. Maidana, when he worked at it, was an extremely rough pressure fighter.
Would Mayweather have struggled against Khan? Maybe for round or two, until he caught on to Khans timing. Mayweather is one of the few fighters capable of beating opponents clearly as fast or faster than him, like Zab Judah and Shane Mosley. Khan had a poor chin as well.
The count isn't even the big thing - The ref says had the doctor wave the fight off as a TKO in favor of Pacquaio after he saw Pacquiao headbutt the guy and it opened up a cut on Hussein's face - he falsely declared it a punch on purpose. So even after giving Pac a long count and a bogus point deduction, he still wasn't confident and flat out ended the fight as a Pacquiao W.
INSANE.
So are we to believe that years later, after many more high level fights, Pacquiao would walk through punches delivered by Miguel Cotto, after being knocked goofy by some guy named Hussein? Does this point to chemical assistance?
What makes a good chin, seeing the punch and the ability to take the power of the punch, a very subtle subconscious looseness at the moment of impact, the second line of defence comes to the muscle and structure to absorb the power lessening the brain whip, then driving it all is the character of the fighter at his core, is he game, is he stubborn, is he determined, all contribute to taking a hard punch.
Outstanding analysis. I agree a good chin is partly a function of things we cannot see such as the “wiring” of the nervous system, allowing some fighters to take tremendous blows, while others fall over unconscious. Conditioning has something to do with it as well. Well conditioned athlete can take more punishment than a poorly conditioned athlete.
I agree that “will” plays a role in whether someone is prepared to take a beating and get back up. However, will is overrated. Almost all high-level professionals are prepared to risk their lives in the ring. Anthony Joshua, for instance, lacks neither will, nor conditioning. However he has a poor chin for physiological reasons that we can’t understand. It will only get worse with time.
Your word picture reminds me a lot of a particular punch Canelo took from Daniel Jacobs. It was a hard punch, but he rode it well. Even though it thudded ominously, Canelo clearly has a good chin and also knows how to take it in the right way.
Another example is the third Wilder - Fury fight, where Wilder set up the exact same shot off the ropes that he would later use to knock out Helenius. Fury seemed to take a much cleaner version of that shot, and he quickly moved his forehead foreword and down so as not to take the shot on the chin. Excellent response that probably prevented a TKO loss.
Canelo is an interesting case. Very nearly knocked out by José Miguel Cotto, a journeyman at best, at 149 pounds. Yet after years of hard fighting, he was able to walk through punches from GGG and Sergey Kovalev, two of the hardest punchers at middleweight and light heavyweight. Legit? I have trouble buying it. His chin and his power got better at higher weight classes. That’s not usually the way it’s supposed to work.
What do you propose? I know Canelo has tested positive for PED’s, I’m just not sure how those would help his chin, save for conditioning. Meth enables people to endure incredible pain and keep fighting, but that’s something different. Please explain?
Steroids, resulting in super physiological levels of testosterone, absolutely would help someone walk through punches. Strong, fit, aggressive athletes will always be able to take more punishment than those not similarly endowed.
It happened in the UFC some years ago when they allowed fighters to “supplement” with testosterone. It was a disaster and they quickly stopped that policy.
Obviously, Canelo has only tested positive once. I am just pointing out that I think it’s strange that as he has gone up in weight, his power and his chin have increased. That’s the opposite of what you usually see.
Khan was at 155 pounds and he gets knocked out all the time. Fielding had already been stopped and was very, very clearly outmatched.
Kovalev is tricky because clearly it WASNT Canelos power as he couldnt seriously hurt Jacobs or GGG in 36 rounds. The KO was absolutely real though. There are speculations that Kovalev threw the fight, but the actual KO was definitely real.
My best guess Kovalev was over-trained. Nothing was right from the first round. Jab was fluid and not stiff and he hardly threw any rights with pop. He just didnt look like himself and was overly cautious defensively. Maybe he was hurt during sparring?? I dont know and I'm a Canelo fan...that fight was just off though. Not to take anything away from Canelo, but I think the result had more to do with Kovalev being overtrained, hurt in sparring, or just shot than it did Canelo being great.
So Canelos power has not increased at all in his career. Hes never been a 1 punch KO guy except when strategically matched against chinny fighters (Khan and Kirkland), but his power is demonstrated in accumulation via late stoppages (Kovalev, Angulo, Liam Smith)
I don’t know - Canelo’s fist smashed into Kovalev’s face, he was concussed and went down on his keyster. I mean, Andre Ward spent most of his career at SMW and LHW, and his stoppage of Kovalev was not as decisive.
I’m just saying it’s worth discussing. I can’t see in Canelo’s body or his camp. But it’s weird for a guy to hold his power over that much weight gain.
You must have missed his fights during his prime in the 60's. He was very difficult to hit cleanly.
No, there’s a new book out called “Ali By the Numbers.” I listened to an interview with the authors. They did a Compubox analysis on every Ali fight but one, and compared them to judges scorecards. To their surprise they found that Ali got hit a lot in his younger days, but he had an exceptional chin, and the judges were often fooled.
When he fought Kovalev you could see a bit of fat around his middle. He was not all that lean and he is not a full sized light heavyweight.
I saw no fat at all...Canelo was a ripped 175 pounds.
I can buy that he takes punches better at 28 than at 19. But I’m not sure that applies while going up 3-4 weight classes. I mean, Kovalev hits so much harder than any super welterweight. Ditto GGG and Danny Jacobs.
Canelo, drugs or no drugs, is an excellent boxer. But this is worth discussing.
Canelo hasn't KOd anyone since JMW...what are you talking about?
Not sure I understand - Canelo knocked out Khan, Fielding, and Kovalev. That was at middleweight, super middleweight, and light heavyweight, respectively.
I think both fighters are tested right afterwards right? Or right before? It would be incredibly risky for Floyd to take something illegal moments before a fight
No fat at all?
So Floyd, Manny, Bradley, Klitschko, JMM, Sexy Sergio, and every other fighter with no fat at all must be JUICED TO THE GILLS.
CTFU...
BIGPOPPAPUMP where u at kid
If Mayweather has done what Pacquiao did, and move upright weight classes, while remaining shredded with good power, I’d be suspicious of him too. But that didn’t happen. Mayweather’s ceiling was clearly welterweight, and he stopped knocking people out at that weight, other than Rickey Hatton, who practically begged for it.
You do know that compubox is purely subjective don't you? Who do you think is pushing the buttons?
At least it’s a system with some framework, as opposed to just going by feel or impressions.
Ali did not get hit a lot during the 60's. He was very difficult to hit during his prime. I don't give a shi*t about a meaningless compubox "numbers" book that has no credibility. Anybody that intelligently watches his fights can see that. That's like pissing on somebody and telling them it's rain.
Feel free to pick out any one of these fights in it's entirety and point out where Ali was getting hit a lot on the chin.
I don’t know, I would go with stats, even ones like Compubox that are subject to some human error, over purely subjective impressions.
I also believe race comes into it.
There aren't many white people in the US set up. I imagine a load of coloured kids..and therefore i imagine the US government not giving a single **** about them.
Race has nothing to do with it. No one, in this day and age, says, “Well, there’s a lot of black and Latino folks in boxing. Screw them.” I’m sure the U.S. basketball team isn’t treated with contempt. The U.S. simply doesn’t support sports with public money. In Britain it’s expected that elite athletes will be on the public dole. The U.S. has never embraced that.
Furthermore, boxing is a very popular sport in the U.K. It isn’t in America. Makes sense that the U.K. would find it more heavily.
Finally, while PEDs have always been a problem in America, they never had a state-sponsored doping program. The USSR did.