Casual Fans overlooking Fury's mastery of his Era?

[Toffee]

In the context of sporting history, this is solid gold - The "Oldest, richest, most internationally acknowledged title in all of sports", as they say.

It should be.

But you look at what it takes to hold that title... avoiding contracted fights, drugs, PEDs, bans, retirement, obesity, 'defences' against Pianeta, Seferi and Schwarz, inactivity, fighting a non boxer when you have a major fight signed.

And the obvious question is... if that's what it takes to hold the lineal title then is it even credible?

[Willow The Wisp]

- - So Lewie makes a tubby comeback with a dozen soft defenses, and that's lineal for you?

Nope. Been too long. History shows the limits. See Jeffries.

[Willow The Wisp]

It should be.

But you look at what it takes to hold that title... avoiding contracted fights, drugs, PEDs, bans, retirement, obesity, 'defences' against Pianeta, Seferi and Schwarz, inactivity, fighting a non boxer when you have a major fight signed.

And the obvious question is... if that's what it takes to hold the lineal title then is it even credible?

"It" Doesn't require credibility. Fury has been a troublesome steward of the title. But that's beside the point. It's still his title, love him or hate him, and its the only title in combat sports that can't be stripped by anyone outside of his being beaten in the ring, permanently retiring or passing away.

[HeadShots]

Mastery of getting his ass beat by mma fighters, postponing fights and dodging threats

[MONGOOSE66]

He's fighting an MMA fighter rather than the number two in the division. It's the job of apologists to justify that.

Hmmm, so if someone offered you or anyone else on here a chance to make how much Ellon Musk makes vs what you make in a year. You wouldn’t take it? Thats what I thought. Much of morons.

[juggernaut666]

Hmmm, so if someone offered you or anyone else on here a chance to make how much Ellon Musk makes vs what you make in a year. You wouldn’t take it? Thats what I thought. Much of morons.

Fury had a responsibility as a champion he lied to everyone and knew he was fighting Ngannou way before the Usyk negotiations , he actually deleted a tweet showing him admitting Ngganou was already decided on . No one on here holds a WBC works belt so the question is ridiculous in fact it’s suppose to be against ANY sanction body rules to fight anyone not ranked if you are a champion let alone a guy making a pro debut in boxing . Money didn’t change the rules unless I’m unaware a champion can fight someone not even ranked ?

[kafkod]

My level of expertise notwithstanding, the title lineage is empirical and longstanding. The principles upon which the title was built and maintained have never been in dispute.
It's a title that is won and lost in the ring.
Period.
No annual tournament, no playoffs that ignore the regular season, no league or club to join, no politics or backroom deals.

The Heavyweight (open) division has been VERY fortunate to have escaped the corruption of the self-appointed, for-profit "Banditos", who casually strip and bestow their false titles by selling their sanction to promotors.
In the context of sporting history, this is solid gold - The "Oldest, richest, most internationally acknowledged title in all of sports", as they say.

When there were breaks in the chain (Following Jeffries, Tunney, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Ali III, and Lewis), but the retired champion made a comeback and repaired the chain.
When this failed to occur (Tunney, Marciano and Lewis), arrangements were made to match the best active contenders in order to mend the chain, without controversy or dispute. In the most recent episode, Wladimir Klitschko, through attrition, collected belts and turned back challenges until anyone with a ghost of a chance against him had been dealt with; except for his own brother, who's own list of scalps decidedly rated second best. Following Wladimir's one sided beating of WBA champion Ruslan Chagaev for the IBF, WBO, IBO titles then held by Klitschko in June 2009; Wladimir had secured wins over Rahman, Thompson, Ibragimov, Austin, Brock, Peter, Byrd, Castillo, Williamson and a host of others, and would further his claim going forward with frequent defenses for the next six years against the division's best, extending long after Vitali had dropped off the radar.
His mop up job was the best establishment of title lineage that anyone could do without a comeback by Lennox Lewis.

What this has to do with Tyson Fury at this point, is that in decisively beating Klitschko, he TOOK that Liniage, and all those shiny belts away from Klitschko, to keep for himself; to have until he gets beaten in the ring himself, permanently retires or dies; as title history states.

The sanctioning bodies are free to sell and strip their belts of course; but for the history books and serious followers of the sport; all titles given out are preliminary steps to fight for the one Lineal Championship of the world.
A fact no more open to opinion than the Papacy.
Just ask Usyk, now festooned with only the belts lifted feloniously from Fury while he was on sabbatical and "given back" to the defrocked Klitschko AFTER he had long since lost them, and the belt bestowed on unranked Charles Martin, passed around to interlopers Joshua, Ruiz, Joshua and Usyk.

These things shouldn't have to be explained to a bright and knowledgeable poster like you, Dan.
And for the sake of curbing revisionist history and other pure BS, I hope you'll consider your response, and its contributions to the only integrity, beyond the real blood, that boxing has.

So now, hopefully in May; we get to see number 1 & 2 go at it, either to defend the title, or pass it on.

"The title lineage is empirical and longstanding.The principles upon which the title was built and maintained have never been in dispute."

This is a clear example of a logical fallacy known as the "category error." You are talking about an abstract idea, based upon subjective interpretation of historical facts, as if that abstract idea was itself a historical fact.

The lineage of world heavyweight boxing champions exists in the annals of sporting history. It is simply a list of who beat who, when and where, in a world heavyweight title fight. As such, you can say that it has empirical, objective reality.

The lineal title does not exist and never has existed, except as an idea in the minds of people who think and talk about boxing. As such, the lineal title has no empirical, objective reality. Which is why this thread is now 8 pages long.

[MONGOOSE66]

Fury had a responsibility as a champion he lied to everyone and knew he was fighting Ngannou way before the Usyk negotiations , he actually deleted a tweet showing him admitting Ngganou was already decided on . No one on here holds a WBC works belt so the question is ridiculous in fact it’s suppose to be against ANY sanction body rules to fight anyone not ranked if you are a champion let alone a guy making a pro debut in boxing . Money didn’t change the rules unless I’m unaware a champion can fight someone not even ranked ?

So you’re saying you would t take the money?

[Toffee]

"It" Doesn't require credibility. Fury has been a troublesome steward of the title. But that's beside the point. It's still his title, love him or hate him, and its the only title in combat sports that can't be stripped by anyone outside of his being beaten in the ring, permanently retiring or passing away.

But you keep saying that like it's a good thing. How can it be the "solid gold - The Oldest, richest, most internationally acknowledged title in all of sports" when it has no rules, no standards, no sporting integrity.

Once upon a time it was THE title, but the sport has moved on. Modern fighters don't treat that title with any respect. They don't consider it an honour that comes with responsibilities or obligations. They have diminished the title to the point where it is simply worthless.

No other sport would accept someone claiming to be THE MAN while not defending that status or swanning around in exhibitions. Boxing might be organised horribly when it comes to the belts, but they've got much higher standards than come with Lineal status. And that's saying something.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Not to mention, as a title that exists solely in the minds of boxing fans, they're certainly going to remember that he got dropped, and arguably lost to Ngannou. The majority of the extra jabs he landed were in rounds he was winning anyways. The "swing" rounds were 2, in which he landed ONE extra jab, while Ngannou opened up a cut with an uppercut, and 7, in which Fury landed ONE extra jab, while Ngannou landed an extra power punch.

I've broken it down Rd by Rd, and if you want to believe Fury won that fight, it was on the strength of just one jab being weighed above damage done.

That's leaving aside possible point deductions for deliberate elbows from Fury.

If lineal were actually a big deal, it still doesn't matter because that title could easily belong to Ngannou now.