Buy or Sell: Drawing the Color Line

[travestyny]

Do they mention this in the Unforgivable Blackness documentary as well?

Hmm. I can't remember if they mentioned it in the documentary. It seems like every book I've read about black boxers around this time always issues some type of "warning" about the newspaper articles that they will be quoting. One page i recently read was pretty eye opening. I may try to go back, find it, and post it.

[Willie Pep 229]

Why is it you guys can point out every line of hate that polluted the period's media but yet not apricate or even recognize the immense pressure that was placed on White champions not to risk their title to a Black challenger. You use the word "duck' too loosely with no respect to the realities of the day.

That Dempsey "ducked" Black fighters who never rose above the 6th slot in The Ring Rankings, or others were never even ranked at all, is just plain absurd..

A little too much use of the word "duck." The only real argument is Wills all the rest . . . well I'm not allow to say what I think out loud, but IMHO you discredit yourselves..

[travestyny]

Why is it you guys can point out every line of hate that polluted the period's media but yet not apricate or even recognize the immense pressure that was placed on White champions not to risk their title to a Black challenger. You use the word "duck' too loosely with no respect to the realities of the day.

That Dempsey "ducked" Black fighters who never rose above the 6th slot in The Ring Rankings, or others were never even ranked at all, is just plain absurd..

A little too much use of the word "duck." The only real argument is Wills all the rest . . . well I'm not allow to say what I think out loud, but IMHO you discredit yourselves..

Well if we are talking about ducks, I've only specifically mentioned a few that I believe he ducked. We were talking about drawing the color line, which of course, there would be others mentioned.

He positively ducked Wills. I consider the Jeannette situation also a duck simply because he stated himself that he would fight two White men instead...ANY white men. I haven't looked into Greb but that was likely a duck from the rumblings I've seen here. Sure he had pressure not to fight black fighters...from his wife and some others in the general public I assume. But as you were already shown by Jab, there was a poll showing that the people were ready for the fight. I simply don't think there is any other way to label it.

[billeau2]

They actually called Sam Langford "The Boston Tar Baby" in the press? How TF did he not sue back then? Dude, that's just disgusting. Aren't incidents like that why the NAACP was created in the first place?

Actually in the case of Sam it was complimentary. London was a lot worse. He hated Johnson and referred to him as "the laughing Ethiopian" and the cartoonists would draw horrible depictions of JJ. Culturally in those days race was considered a legit descriptive that was employed... So one might refer to a fighter as a "Big Boned Negro, dark as soot" with no insult intended. White individuals were considered to have the quality of manifest destiny... The belief that an unmitigated rise to pursue self interests was warranted because it benefitted the rest of the "civilized world" lol. But sometimes this was actually a burden. Take when London henpicked Jeffries to come out of retirement to "pursue the manifest destiny of the White race and lick Johnson." Jeffries was actually obligated in a perverse way to act on that decree, when he would not have fought Johnson otherwise. We know this because he took the fight lol.

This was a time when skulls were measured, and people with an agenda misinterpreted Darwin, claiming that social Darwinism was as real as evolution: Hence, the Irish were starving because they were ill equipped, not because of a virus that destroyed potatoes... And those born with a silver spoon in their mouth were born so because of superior traits born from struggling with the same social forces that affected all organisms.

[billeau2]

Why is it you guys can point out every line of hate that polluted the period's media but yet not apricate or even recognize the immense pressure that was placed on White champions not to risk their title to a Black challenger. You use the word "duck' too loosely with no respect to the realities of the day.

That Dempsey "ducked" Black fighters who never rose above the 6th slot in The Ring Rankings, or others were never even ranked at all, is just plain absurd..

A little too much use of the word "duck." The only real argument is Wills all the rest . . . well I'm not allow to say what I think out loud, but IMHO you discredit yourselves..

I think its a fair point. I just responded to Anthony about something and a lot of what I posted to him applies to your point. I think culturally the landscape back then was clannish. You had those who had fought the English and settled in a few generations removed... The civil war was not really in may respects a race war per se. Race became a code word for clan. The clan of white individuals who had a controlling interest in the country, those whom had the political clout, the economic clout, and the means, versus the newer immigrant groups, and the freed Blacks. Each Clan had their own interests to pursue. But each clan reasoned that their interest was at the expense of others who wanted similar results.

For a white individual of English ancestory, whether he was a pauper, or a prince, to claim the mantel of acting for the greater good of the White race was a way to gain some privalege. A great example of this is "Bill the Butcher" in Gangs of New York. A "Dandy" (a term for a menacing kind of street character) could act most henious when it suited his purposes and then claim patriotic connections to his place as one birthed from a family that fought in the war of independence.

Whether this extended down to the fighters I am not sure of... I do think it extended to the men who managed the fighters, had to arrainge fights, understand sentiments of the public, and whom should have their palm greased. Some fighters seemed more on the ball than others... I mean Tunney for example, had been a Marine and an autodidactic. But cultural blinders extend a great deal forward... Did these men... fighters like Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson, etc really have an intelligent informed opinion, and desire to act inaccord with any principle of fairness? Wills to his credit is IMO perhaps the exception to the bunch in this manner. Wills seems to have been decent, inteliigent, hard working, a business success, and on a high level with regard to intellectual acuity. I would think Tunney would be similar, but I have my doubts.

[Marchegiano]

Why is it you guys can point out every line of hate that polluted the period's media but yet not apricate or even recognize the immense pressure that was placed on White champions not to risk their title to a Black challenger. You use the word "duck' too loosely with no respect to the realities of the day.

That Dempsey "ducked" Black fighters who never rose above the 6th slot in The Ring Rankings, or others were never even ranked at all, is just plain absurd..

A little too much use of the word "duck." The only real argument is Wills all the rest . . . well I'm not allow to say what I think out loud, but IMHO you discredit yourselves..

I have, just so, so much to say to this. I hope I don't jumble it.

Anyone who didn't fight someone and should have takes a hit imo. I don't really care, to be honest, how unfair I am. So, really, it's just the ones others get hung up on that get highlighted because they made it special. I cast a broad and unforgiving stroke on purpose.

If I say Wilder and Joshua ducked each other people take that as diplomatic. If I say Champ X ducked Black Challenger Y now I need historically accurate information to prove Champ X, whose resume is dog**** by anyone's ratings, should have but did not fight Y. Only reason I give any damns is because I have and will learn plenty when explaining myself. Otherwise I'd just tell ya's "Nah, should have fight Y"

So, from my perspective, y'all soft on your ATGs firstly, and, make the colorline a special event when it doesn't have to be secondly.

That said, Ring is a magazine. The NBA is a real body. No one ranked anything prior to 24 in America, that I know of anyway. Maybe the PG or some such similar but I'm pretty sure if the NBA had 21 ratings I'd know.

So, I can hardly make a point using a Dempsey timeline but the OG NBA ratings starting in the 30s vs the Ring in the 30s is about like the WBA vs Ring now. Similar, but, I wouldn't hang my hat on the numbers. Dude ranked sixth by one might be third in another:

NBA:

1. Jack Sharkey
2. Tommy Loughran
3. Max Schmeling
4. Ernie Schaaf
5. Otto von Porat
6. George Godfrey
7. Paulino Uzcudun
8. Vittorio Campolo
9. Young Stribling
10. Tuffy Griffith
11. Phil Scott

Ring:

1. Jack Sharkey
2. Max Schmeling
3. George Godfrey
4. Tuffy Griffith
5. Phil Scott
6. Otto von Porat
7. Young Stribling
8. Johnny Risko
9. Primo Carnera
10. Vittorio Campolo

Using Ring exclusively I could write an inflated worth for Godfrey that was not official. I think you see my point.

It is, afterall, a magazine. It's worth is as much as Police Gazette rankings or a newspaper ratings like the Chicago Tribune. If the public wanted to see the fight then Ring probably captured that. Just like how the newspaper clippings of readers polled capture it. However, if a man beats the crap out of a champion in sparring then he's avoided specifically because management was shook by the sparring beating how is that not a duck? You don't need rating for that. You don't need public interest, all you really need is the team telling you, yes, we avoided this man on purpose because we were scared he'd beat the champion.

Side note, one should really respect the PG if they respect Ring. Not only did Nat ripoff the entire idea of Ring from the PG but also his claim to fame book series as a historian, plagiarism, nearly word for word, from the editor and owner of the PG and his book series. So really, everything Ring claimed Ring was in the beginning was really PG with a new brand.

So, yeah, no, I don't think guys who had public pressure get a freepass because powers bigger than them kinda bull****.

I don't think Ring ratings have much worth when talking about who ducked who. That just makes me think you are incapable of looking at narratives and forming your own opinion tbh.

And as far as the colorline goes, how is it that much different than say Wlad who had no colorline, had no political hurtle I know of, he just didn't have anyone to fight? If you have a crappy resume because everyone else around you is crappy I'm not going to pretend it's good just because he fought who was there. sucks for him and the era. If you have a dog**** resume and it could have been better but you were worried about some political or social pressure, then you chose politics and society over being an All Time Great champion. Period. Sucks for you and your era, but, you had an out and you didn't take it.

So, the 30s, they ******, probably should have fought Larry Gains, Obie Walker, of George Godfrey. FFS.

20s, ****, should have fought Norfolk, Wills, Langford, Jeanette, McVey, or, Godfrey.

Because, in both cases, without one another, in ATG terms, their resumes are dog****. Wills would have put Dempsey over. He would have been one more name that's much better than ****ing Billy Miske dude. Vice Versa, had Jack lost, he's ****ing Jack Dempsey. He alone made Tunney an ATG HW to many. Bam son, one fight and now whoever won has real ****ing arguement for ATG against guys like Louis and Ali. Not excuses, a real argument. Sucks for him and his era.

To bring this back to Wlad. He had one who could have put him over too. His brother. He chose family over boxing. Way more understandable, I still don't give a ****. Think about how much better Wlad's resume would be than it is if he beat Vitali at some point.

Sullivan should have fought Charlie again, until he beat him. Godfrey and maybe even Peter The Great.

Corbett - Johnson did. Not much to say about the guy who beat Bob Armstrong and such before they become champion. They chose boxing and figured out a way to not piss off their people. Dempsey did not. He fought Lester...So, I'm even harder on the mug then people like Corbett, who, was waaay more racist than Dempsey, because Corbett fought at least former colored champions where as Dempsey fought Billy Miske then fought Billy Miske again for the title coming off loses to Norfolk, Greb, Gibbons, and Levinsky.

So really, y'all might label me as having put new era morality on an era that it did not exist in, but, the best fighting the best is older than accepting excuses. I'm the old school here, y'all babies trying to protect a racist champion with racism from the era and it ain't ever gonna work on me because I keep it simple. Would the name look good on their record? If yes then the criticism that comes from the lacking is deserved.

Before I go let me drop one more on ranks:


Ring:1932
Max Schmeling, Champion

1. Jack Sharkey
2. Ernie Schaaf
3. Primo Carnera
4. King Levinsky
5. Mickey Walker
6. Tommy Loughran
7. Young Stribling
8. Stanley Poreda
9. Tuffy Griffiths
10. Max Baer

National Boxing Association's Quarterly Ratings: 1932

1. Max Schmeling
2. Max Baer
3. Stanley Poreda
4. Johnny Risko
5. Mickey Walker
6. Larry Gains
7. Ernie Schaaf
8. Tony Shucco
9. Isidoro Gastanaga
10. Jack Petersen

Asses should have fought Larry.

[Anthony342]

Actually in the case of Sam it was complimentary. London was a lot worse. He hated Johnson and referred to him as "the laughing Ethiopian" and the cartoonists would draw horrible depictions of JJ. Culturally in those days race was considered a legit descriptive that was employed... So one might refer to a fighter as a "Big Boned Negro, dark as soot" with no insult intended. White individuals were considered to have the quality of manifest destiny... The belief that an unmitigated rise to pursue self interests was warranted because it benefitted the rest of the "civilized world" lol. But sometimes this was actually a burden. Take when London henpicked Jeffries to come out of retirement to "pursue the manifest destiny of the White race and lick Johnson." Jeffries was actually obligated in a perverse way to act on that decree, when he would not have fought Johnson otherwise. We know this because he took the fight lol.

This was a time when skulls were measured, and people with an agenda misinterpreted Darwin, claiming that social Darwinism was as real as evolution: Hence, the Irish were starving because they were ill equipped, not because of a virus that destroyed potatoes... And those born with a silver spoon in their mouth were born so because of superior traits born from struggling with the same social forces that affected all organisms.

Dark as soot? Holy crap dude. Strange you mention this because I was watching an SNL sketch with Jimmy Fallon from 2000 where he did a Chris Rock impression. Because they made him look black, it was later deemed "blackface." Fallon apologized for it years later and Rock said he wasn't offended by it. But youtube had this other clip of this Judy Garland movie called Everybody Sing from 1938 where Garland is in it. Her character is in disguise, but one of the guys figures out who she really is by rubbing off what looks like soot, so I guess that's what performers used to use back then and why journalists used to use that word. Story is that Judy was forced into doing that movie too.

[travestyny]

Dark as soot? Holy crap dude. Strange you mention this because I was watching an SNL sketch with Jimmy Fallon from 2000 where he did a Chris Rock impression. Because they made him look black, it was later deemed "blackface." Fallon apologized for it years later and Rock said he wasn't offended by it. But youtube had this other clip of this Judy Garland movie called Everybody Sing from 1938 where Garland is in it. Her character is in disguise, but one of the guys figures out who she really is by rubbing off what looks like soot, so I guess that's what performers used to use back then and why journalists used to use that word. Story is that Judy was forced into doing that movie too.

There were apparently a lot of things like these. The second one is from Australia, where it was said that they were much more accepting of Black fighters at the time.

Three days later, the same paper published a grotesque “biography” of Johnson: TEXAS WATERMELON PICKANINNY MAKES BIG DENTS About twenty-five years ago one bright, sunny southern morning there was a dull, solid-sounding thud heard and felt throughout the State of Texas. A close examination of the face of the commonwealth revealed a large dent on the back bay shore of Galveston which was finally determined to be the place where the stork had severed connection with a wooly litde black pickaninny. The baby set up the characteristic roar and its mammy took care of it. Mammy’s name was Johnsing, and the first act was to visit the little African M.E. church and give the boy a name. After discussing the customary George Washington Johnson, Benjamin Franklin Johnson, and Napoleon Bonaparte Johnson, the parents finally compromised on Jonathan Arthur Johnson, and like the little fellow’s hands in the melon patch, the name “stuck.””

“The Truth headlined its January 30 story jaunty jack Johnson de new coon comes to town. “Johnson is a big coon... 28 years of age,” it said; “he has a genial face, somewhat babyish looking and of the type of the little coons who may be seen devouring watermelons in a well-known American picture.”

I'm sure these were not the worst of it, but a few I ran into recently.

[billeau2]

Dark as soot? Holy crap dude. Strange you mention this because I was watching an SNL sketch with Jimmy Fallon from 2000 where he did a Chris Rock impression. Because they made him look black, it was later deemed "blackface." Fallon apologized for it years later and Rock said he wasn't offended by it. But youtube had this other clip of this Judy Garland movie called Everybody Sing from 1938 where Garland is in it. Her character is in disguise, but one of the guys figures out who she really is by rubbing off what looks like soot, so I guess that's what performers used to use back then and why journalists used to use that word. Story is that Judy was forced into doing that movie too.

People were very thick skinned about race back then. Jonathan livingston Siegull wrote a Polemic where he suggested cooking Irish babies as a means to end the great potatoe famine. It was done in jest, and as a way to discuss real issues, but can you imagine if someone, to highlight Black inequality, suggested something like handing out extra handguns to the youth, as a way to discuss gun violence? I doubt that humor would be tolerated.

[Dr. Z]

I hope you doubt this historian and wreck the rest of your silly arguments here,




Articles from back then back this story up.

It's as if all of us exist here just to educate you. You're almost as bad as Queenie now.


Oh, and I like how you try to argue that Harry Wills ducked Godfrey, and in the same breath you're clinging to Wills being the #1 contender to say Dempsey didn't duck others. lol. So Wills being the #1 contender means Dempsey is absolved from not fighting others, yet that doesn't apply to Wills who was waiting for his shot. How many times can you be exposed here with your doo doo logic? Just stop. The ducking you do and your non-sensical arguments are just annoying now. You got banned at the last website. Hopefully the same happens to you here so we can be free of your idiocy.

Well, what have we here? A poster posting racy threads who doesn't like the truth? And one who is rather militant on Jack Johnson.

I agree with you that Dempsey should have meet Wills. And I stand by the Godfery's manger tired to make a match with Wills several times. You have me confused with some else. And I can read the message board you accuse me of being banned. I don't post there anymore. Did you post there? And under what name?

You could not debate you way out of a paper bag. No be gone! You need to " educate " us on critical race theory, and Black lives matter. You started thread on them, and other posters are calling you out!