Buy or Sell: Drawing the Color Line

[Dr. Z]

@ travestyny, Johnson cheapened the belt. A champion is mostly defined by who he defended against. In Johnson case, he avoided the best 4 contenders for years.

To put it into context, what if Ali avoided Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Shavers, and Lyle, and instead fought the Jack O'Hallerhan,, Scrap Iron Johnson's, Two blown up middleweights ( and was outboxed in one match, and floored in another ), took 15 rounds to Ko'd an out of retirement old and rusty Ingo, then was knocked out by Gerry Cooney when he aged?!

Essentially, that's what Jack Johnson did in his time.

If Ali did this, his legacy would have taken a HUGE hit. But Ali beat his best opponents in their prime or near prime years.

[Dr. Z]

This is an article by a boxing historian who fought . Why not read it and say what is not true?

" Jack Johnson Was Not as Great as You Were Told! :

https://coxscorner.tripod.com/Johnson_Not_As_Great.html

[Marchegiano]

Not all of them. Jeffries by my research easily beat and floored Hank Griffin, a good black fighter coming off a win over Jack Johnson. Since the fight took place after Jeffries was champion, it should be viewed as a legit title defense. Had Jeffries lost to Griffin, Griffin is the next lineal champion. History casts a blind eye here, I'm not sure why. Probably because the story of the color line sounds better by not talking about it.

Later Johnson meet Jeffries in the bar he owned, and asked for a fight. Jeffries said he would not dran files, but did offer Johnson a private fight. Johnson quickly left the bar. I call that a semi duck. Even if Johnson lost, he could bait the press leading to a real title match.

I've done absolutely no research into that fight so don't take this as a challenge so much as inquisition. What proof or even evidence have you come across that whould have you believe the Griffin fight was against champion Jeffries? CBZ reports a very different timeline

[The Big Dunn]

Do you buy or sell the following John L. Sullivan quotation?

Feels like he came back from the dead, created an NSB account, and read 1bads posts.

[Marchegiano]

@ travestyny, Johnson cheapened the belt. A champion is mostly defined by who he defended against. In Johnson case, he avoided the best 4 contenders for years.

To put it into context, what if Ali avoided Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Shavers, and Lyle, and instead fought the Jack O'Hallerhan,, Scrap Iron Johnson's, Two blown up middleweights ( and was outboxed in one match, and floored in another ), took 15 rounds to Ko'd an out of retirement old and rusty Ingo, then was knocked out by Gerry Cooney when he aged?!

Essentially, that's what Jack Johnson did in his time.

If Ali did this, his legacy would have taken a HUGE hit. But Ali beat his best opponents in their prime or near prime years.

Jack Johnson ducked 4 of the best of his era but Jack Dempsey didn't?

[travestyny]

LOL, you ask for a findlay debate, then call me cowardly. That's rich.

I think we know who you are. You are getting political on things, quote one side of the story, and remain fixated on excuses. I call them like I see them and can say good and bad things about both fighters. I don't think you have shown that ability.

DUCKS as champion.

Johnson - Langford, Jeannette, McVey, GB Smith, McCarthy 1/2. No rematches with O'Brien either, who drew with him as champion. Johnson = 4.5 ducks. Plus he made up two stories of fixes with Willard and Ketchel.

Dempsey = Wills, Greb. 2 ducks.

IMO Johnson is the greater ducker here, and user of the " color " line which is really the ability line as the money made differs not. His own people, the fighters of the times, and the black press which covered boxing says so.

Now my turn. What are Johnson 3 greatest wins in a in boxing sense? You ignore many of my questions... this one was asked multiple times. A reply back would be nice. And after that I might have a few more for you

Nice little charade, but that's not what I meant at all.

Why don't we have a formal debate about it so that you can stop ducking and hiding from my questions. I'm sure we could get three unbiased judges from this section and set up some rules so that no one can duck and dodge. Would be fun. The three judges can then tell us who is right.


So what's going to be the topic? Every time I get involved in these things, people suddenly want to change the topic mid way because they realize that they are wrong, so let's get it straight. We are going to have a debate about who was the "King of the color line" between Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson, correct?


Do I have this right, or nah?


I'll just toss you a couple little morsels since you told me your whole silly argument. You're leaving out some names regarding Dempsey. Joe Jeannette ran him out of New York City. He didn't want Sam Langford when he was young. He didn't want Sam Langford when Langford was blind. He didn't want Kid Norfolk. I guess you forgot about that one. He ducked Harry Wills, his #1 contender....FOR SOMETHING LIKE 5 YEARS. He explicitly drew the color-line...TWICE. He once said he would fight two white men instead of a colored boy.


This is going to be extremely easy for me, which is why I know you will duck it. But I'm going to give you a chance to formally bow out gracefully to me.


So are you with it or not? Once you accept the debate, then we can agree on judges and settle it. Do we have an understanding?

And to be clear, the only reason I'm even asking this is because I'm tired of you ducking every single question I ask shamelessly and then ranting over and over. You don't want to have a proper discussion. You want a soap box to scream from. So let's see how you do when my information is pitted against yours to unbiased posters, and if your info. is more convincing than mine then I'll be the first to salute you. Deal?


PS. You need to start reading and stop being a coward because I've answered your question already, and you are still here pretending I haven't. I'll do it again so you can stop claiming that I've ducked it, even though you've been ducking my questions literally for over a month. His three best wins in my opinion are Langford, Jeannette, and mcVey. Honorable mentions to me are Burns, Ketchel, and Jeffries.

[travestyny]

Feels like he came back from the dead, created an NSB account, and read 1bads posts.

LMAOOO. Facts!!!!

[travestyny]

This is an article by a boxing historian who fought . Why not read it and say what is not true?

" Jack Johnson Was Not as Great as You Were Told! :

https://coxscorner.tripod.com/Johnson_Not_As_Great.html

And here's a great article from Sam Langford on why Jack Johnson is so great

Also, check out his opinion at the end of the Ketchel "knockdown." I'm sure you'll love it.

'

[travestyny]

@ travestyny, Johnson cheapened the belt. A champion is mostly defined by who he defended against. In Johnson case, he avoided the best 4 contenders for years.

To put it into context, what if Ali avoided Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Shavers, and Lyle, and instead fought the Jack O'Hallerhan,, Scrap Iron Johnson's, Two blown up middleweights ( and was outboxed in one match, and floored in another ), took 15 rounds to Ko'd an out of retirement old and rusty Ingo, then was knocked out by Gerry Cooney when he aged?!

Essentially, that's what Jack Johnson did in his time.

If Ali did this, his legacy would have taken a HUGE hit. But Ali beat his best opponents in their prime or near prime years.

You keep ducking my simple question regarding Langford and Johnson. Did Johnson agree to fight Langford THREE times, and the fight fell through all three times due to no fault of Jack Johnson: twice Langford dropped the ball and once the fight was pulled by the promoter.

Are you ever going to answer this?

[Dr. Z]

Jack Johnson ducked 4 of the best of his era but Jack Dempsey didn't?

No Dempsey did not duck his 4 best. Who are these ducks from Dempsey as champion. Please name them, I can easily name the people Johnson avoided as champion and who he drew with that did not receive re-matches.