Ike Ibeabuchi VS Joe Louis

[billeau2]

So he doesn't have enough fights to judge him vs a era where they fought stiff and slow how many would he need for you to see his skills and movement over them you trolls are weird

Hey troll! still sprouting the cacka eh?

[billeau2]

Lol. This thread is amusing. Tua, a one handed fighter with no reach and limited mobility is being compared to fighters like Walcott... Only because of Trolls like Moneyman. Ibeauchi had potential. I also liked to watch him and marveled at his perfect heavyweight symetry... In terms of "how to build a heavyweight" I put him in the category of guys like Liston: perfect size, perfect proportions, perfect weight, right in the Goldilocks range...not to big, not too small... But as a fighter? El presidente had a long way to go to become a great fighter...

Let me state another fallicy that people who want to judge a fighter's performance against another are so often guilty of doing (I am seeing it with Spence versus Crawford!)... A great fighter STOPS the other guy from doing what he is doing. So, for example, Ibeauchi could hit a short, one armed fighter with limited mobility easily... Louis would not get hit by Ibeauchi! he would counter and stop Ibeauchi.

Another great example of this fallicy: Watch Spence versus Danny Garcia. Its a great fight and Garcia is an excellent fighter. But there are levels to the game: Spenze is a level above and Garcia ultimately cannot affect what Spenze is doing in the ring. Hes limited that way. Crawford, if he is going to win this fight would have to materially affect the ability of Spenze to continually press and throw shots... So its not really a case of Crawford's pinpoint punching versus Spencer's output... Whomever wins that fight HAS to also stop the other guy from doing what he does to win fights...

Louis, much like Liston had deceptive footwork. It looked one way but was actually methodical and for use over a prolonged period to maximize the opportunities that Louis would have to corner and attack his opponent.

[them_apples]

Louis does everything right its just most of the footage is at a frame rate of 16-20 fps with duplicates in place to run at 30 fps. So you can’t even see any techniques or subtleties especially when its “from the bleachers” camera distance. Occasionally better quality footage will creep up of him maybe sparring that gives you a little hint as to what he real style was. His movements are all so subtle on old film he looks like he’s plodding but he’s employing a multitude of clever feints + a very polished smart style.

Ali actually employed some of his style in the latter half of his career. Louis when coming forward on an angle, chin down, right hand in front of face, left shoulder guards chin - pivots off his back foot. As long as he’s facing you only one punch can actually land and thats a left hook. Ali showed Roy Jones this and Jones was astonished how he suddenly couldn’t hit Ali.

schmeling did land a cross on Louis and said he saw a “weakness” in Louis. I don’t buy that though. Careful inspection of the fight really says Schmeling got underestimated and got smacked around early on - Louis let his guard down and got tagged and HURT by Schmeling and never really recovered. The first round blow out in the second fight doesn’t surprise me. A counter right over a left jab wasn’t new science of the day.

[JAB5239]

Lol. This thread is amusing. Tua, a one handed fighter with no reach and limited mobility is being compared to fighters like Walcott... Only because of Trolls like Moneyman. Ibeauchi had potential. I also liked to watch him and marveled at his perfect heavyweight symetry... In terms of "how to build a heavyweight" I put him in the category of guys like Liston: perfect size, perfect proportions, perfect weight, right in the Goldilocks range...not to big, not too small... But as a fighter? El presidente had a long way to go to become a great fighter...

Let me state another fallicy that people who want to judge a fighter's performance against another are so often guilty of doing (I am seeing it with Spence versus Crawford!)... A great fighter STOPS the other guy from doing what he is doing. So, for example, Ibeauchi could hit a short, one armed fighter with limited mobility easily... Louis would not get hit by Ibeauchi! he would counter and stop Ibeauchi.

Another great example of this fallicy: Watch Spence versus Danny Garcia. Its a great fight and Garcia is an excellent fighter. But there are levels to the game: Spenze is a level above and Garcia ultimately cannot affect what Spenze is doing in the ring. Hes limited that way. Crawford, if he is going to win this fight would have to materially affect the ability of Spenze to continually press and throw shots... So its not really a case of Crawford's pinpoint punching versus Spencer's output... Whomever wins that fight HAS to also stop the other guy from doing what he does to win fights...

Louis, much like Liston had deceptive footwork. It looked one way but was actually methodical and for use over a prolonged period to maximize the opportunities that Louis would have to corner and attack his opponent.

Excellent summary!!

[JAB5239]

Louis does everything right its just most of the footage is at a frame rate of 16-20 fps with duplicates in place to run at 30 fps. So you can’t even see any techniques or subtleties especially when its “from the bleachers” camera distance. Occasionally better quality footage will creep up of him maybe sparring that gives you a little hint as to what he real style was. His movements are all so subtle on old film he looks like he’s plodding but he’s employing a multitude of clever feints + a very polished smart style.

Ali actually employed some of his style in the latter half of his career. Louis when coming forward on an angle, chin down, right hand in front of face, left shoulder guards chin - pivots off his back foot. As long as he’s facing you only one punch can actually land and thats a left hook. Ali showed Roy Jones this and Jones was astonished how he suddenly couldn’t hit Ali.

schmeling did land a cross on Louis and said he saw a “weakness” in Louis. I don’t buy that though. Careful inspection of the fight really says Schmeling got underestimated and got smacked around early on - Louis let his guard down and got tagged and HURT by Schmeling and never really recovered. The first round blow out in the second fight doesn’t surprise me. A counter right over a left jab wasn’t new science of the day.

More great points!

[JAB5239]

No you provided visual outdated evidence and where is it I cant understand anything at its nothing to understand or not your the one who is choosing to act blind not me and your agian saying opinion I have no opinion just visual

I told you bill was only hit often when joe stopped moving i dont like bill's movement or style what reason would I have to lie thats on video you seen the match so you know bill was only hit often when he stopped moving Joe struggled to hit him otherwise

what people know are joe was great for his time and before not after he is outdated shown by jers and bill who were outdated to compared to other eras

Are you being purposely obtuse? The article and the video have exerpts from trainers in the last 25 years.....when Ibeabuchi was an active fighter. The bottom line is, Joe stopped Conn not once, but twice. And not one fighter today including Byrd moved like either Conn or Walcott. You've still shown me nothing while I keep piling on evidence. You have your opinion only, and that isn't cutting the mustard.

[billeau2]

Louis does everything right its just most of the footage is at a frame rate of 16-20 fps with duplicates in place to run at 30 fps. So you can’t even see any techniques or subtleties especially when its “from the bleachers” camera distance. Occasionally better quality footage will creep up of him maybe sparring that gives you a little hint as to what he real style was. His movements are all so subtle on old film he looks like he’s plodding but he’s employing a multitude of clever feints + a very polished smart style.

Ali actually employed some of his style in the latter half of his career. Louis when coming forward on an angle, chin down, right hand in front of face, left shoulder guards chin - pivots off his back foot. As long as he’s facing you only one punch can actually land and thats a left hook. Ali showed Roy Jones this and Jones was astonished how he suddenly couldn’t hit Ali.

schmeling did land a cross on Louis and said he saw a “weakness” in Louis. I don’t buy that though. Careful inspection of the fight really says Schmeling got underestimated and got smacked around early on - Louis let his guard down and got tagged and HURT by Schmeling and never really recovered. The first round blow out in the second fight doesn’t surprise me. A counter right over a left jab wasn’t new science of the day.

Excellent break down! Fighters also employed a false centerline. so the head was actually over the back shoulder while the illusion was the chin was resting on the top of both shoulders equally. Louis like many used this technique... Hopkins even employed it when he was fighting.

Interesting perspective on the Schmelling situation. Its a legitimate question where revision may be called for. I never thought about it and never questioned it... Thats the value of looking at things technically. It never hurts to question assumptions.

[Ascended]

Are you being purposely obtuse? The article and the video have exerpts from trainers in the last 25 years.....when Ibeabuchi was an active fighter. The bottom line is, Joe stopped Conn not once, but twice. And not one fighter today including Byrd moved like either Conn or Walcott. You've still shown me nothing while I keep piling on evidence. You have your opinion only, and that isn't cutting the mustard.

See how you act you people have said how I act is rude I have been respectful these days and talking to you calmly you people have said mutiple times to have a real debate without insulting I did

You insinuated that I was giving you thoughts like you from your messed up mind on fighters I never have gave thoughts only visual memory of how they fought

we argeed on jers you said name the people I did
You said where is the evidence I have you vid evidence which goes over outdated quotes
You then say no you won't quotes knowing i dont use those cause they are bull

You said joe did have trouble with bill but found him he shouldnt have had trouble with bull ike or Chris wouldnt at all that man compared was trash

I need no quotes
I asked you for exact evidence which I knew already it was none of exact advances in movement and angles you couldn't provide like legends i exposed on 24 couldn't cause it doesn't exist

You people want me to be like you I never will that era and before is way to outdated compared it's clear to seeing eyes

[Willie Pep 229]

Quotes dont mean nothing visual evidence and those quotes are talking for his time not for other eras compared I told you exact video evidence I already provided visual for you to see you wont show the same cause like I keep saying you can't all you have are outdated words and footage you cant post advances that joe had over Chris or ike can you

Cause I noticed when they talk of joe best performance they always say max either one why do they never bring up the jers match you people dont cause it shows jers made joe look like the rest stiff and slow the same as he would look vs ike or chris or any other mid/high from 70s-90s

Unfair to use the Walcott fights as examples.

Louis himself said in '46 "I see the openings I just can't pull the trigger [in time].

Louis in Walcott II has that one moment when it all comes back to him but he was finished as a champion and knew it and quit. Until the IRS came knocking.

But that's not the Louis to judge.

[JAB5239]

See how you act you people have said how I act is rude I have been respectful these days and talking to you calmly you people have said mutiple times to have a real debate without insulting I did

You insinuated that I was giving you thoughts like you from your messed up mind on fighters I never have gave thoughts only visual memory of how they fought

we argeed on jers you said name the people I did
You said where is the evidence I have you vid evidence which goes over outdated quotes
You then say no you won't quotes knowing i dont use those cause they are bull

You said joe did have trouble with bill but found him he shouldnt have had trouble with bull ike or Chris wouldnt at all that man compared was trash

I need no quotes
I asked you for exact evidence which I knew already it was none of exact advances in movement and angles you couldn't provide like legends i exposed on 24 couldn't cause it doesn't exist

You people want me to be like you I never will that era and before is way to outdated compared it's clear to seeing eyes

Tell me about the advances in movement and angles. The same movement and aes have always existed. There is nothing new. If so, please beak it down for us. You seem to be the only one who doesn't get this. You keep repeating yourself instead of pro iding evidence. The links I have provided prove you wrong. I'm only asking you show something and break it down to prove otherwise.