Top 5 Middleweights.....Hopkins?

[JAB5239]

It’s a good point you make. You never really see Greb on LHW lists yet he beat a lot of the usual Top 10-15 all time ranked guys there

I have Monzon #1 myself. Definitely wouldn’t argue with Greb though.

He pretty much beat ALL the top ten guys of his era lightheavyweight. I've had this debate with Pep about 100 times now (all due respect) but he beat nearly every fighter Dempsey fought instead of him. His resume is a who's who of all time greats and hall of famers. The only reason I rank Langford ahead of him all time is Sam moved through the best fighters from lightweight to heavyweight. Not Grebs fault he was to big for those divisions while active, but I consider that's slightly more than resume alone. Great fighters both, in era's that were stacked before all the ABC nonsense.

[Biledriver]

So I've been going on about young Corbett III. I messaged the IBRO for their take on this matter. This is what I received from Monte Cox.


Corbett lll was a clever boxing southpaw, although he was not a puncher as he had only 33 knockouts in his estimated 156 fights. Although it can be difficult to judge fighters of this era because they had so many fights I don't see any case for Young Corbett lll being a top 20 all time middleweight, and he made a bigger mark at welterweight where he would still fall short due to the large number of great fighters in the division history.

Corbett's record, like many fighters of the era, is a bit spotty. It should be noted, however, that he spent most of his career at lightweight and welterweight and didnt really compete at middleweight until he had over 130 fights. What are his best wins? He beat Jack Zivic in a welterweight bout, he won a couple of decisions over Ceferina Garcia these were welterweight bouts, he stopped Gus Lesnevich on cuts in a middlweight bout, won and lost to Billy Conn at middleweight, he lost to Lou Brouillard in a middleweight fight. In title fights he beat Jackie Fields for the NBA Welterweight title, but lost the welterweight title to Jimmy McLarnin on a 1st round ko in his next fight. He won a decision over Fred Apolstoli for California recognition as world middleweight champion but was stopped by Apostoli for NYSAC recognition in a rematch later that year. He fought 4 times after that and retired. Although he had a great career and is due respect for his accomplishments that resume falls a bit short of top 20 status at either welterweight or middleweight in my honest opinion.

Keep punching,
Monte Cox

I will say this.....i dont mind going to a source or listening to opposing views from my own. Just teach me something!! Im a fan, im here to learn. If i can teach anyone even just a little bit.....im happy with that. Give me the facts!!!

Nice to see Monte Cox is still out there kicking. He’s always been one of the absolute best boxing resources on internet!

[IronDanHamza]

He pretty much beat ALL the top ten guys of his era lightheavyweight. I've had this debate with Pep about 100 times now (all due respect) but he beat nearly every fighter Dempsey fought instead of him. His resume is a who's who of all time greats and hall of famers. The only reason I rank Langford ahead of him all time is Sam moved through the best fighters from lightweight to heavyweight. Not Grebs fault he was to big for those divisions while active, but I consider that's slightly more than resume alone. Great fighters both, in era's that were stacked before all the ABC nonsense.

Absolutely but what I was saying was if you look at most historical Top 10 LHW ATG list, Greb beat a lot of them. Yet you don’t see him ranked there often.

That said I rank Ezzard Charles above both, on the ATG P4P list.

[JAB5239]

Absolutely but what I was saying was if you look at most historical Top 10 LHW ATG list, Greb beat a lot of them. Yet you don’t see him ranked there often.

That said I rank Ezzard Charles above both, on the ATG P4P list.

Charles has a great resume and is certainly deserving of a lofty rating. I have him number one at lightheavy and number five p4p behind Langford, Greb, Robinson and Armstrong.

[billeau2]

The old way of dealing with weight should work in both directions. Y'all are basically awarding the past for not having so many weight divisions. Shouldn't be Hopkin's fault SMW doesn't exist during Greb's era. Likewise, if you are to nix all SMW fights from judgement then you should be forced to include all fights that would have been SMW in the post SMW.

Greb the GOAT MW based on some LHW wins but Hopkins isn't because most his best is SMW. ... ... no clear bias here.

Greb's resume as a MW at MW is a bunch of names no one ever cared about, no one ever brags about them and their own careers and achievements, and the only time you ever see their names is when someone is praising Greb.


But yeah, GOAT MW because him beat Tunney doe. Who himself has a super lacking resume but him beat Dempsey doe.


Bro, Hagler way above this milky jamook

?? Greb has an incredible resume. I do hear you about the weight divisions... Hagler? it depends... Does one consider leanard and Hearns fighting up to meet Hagler an issue?

Lol sorry M, I did not realize others had made this point.

[IronDanHamza]

Charles has a great resume and is certainly deserving of a lofty rating. I have him number one at lightheavy and number five p4p behind Langford, Greb, Robinson and Armstrong.

Don’t argue with any of that and any order.

I have Charles #1 although understand I’m in the minority with that.

I think resume wise it’s probably Greb, just the(no) footage issue.

Your Top 5 is the same as mine in regards to names.

[billeau2]

I applaud those here who have trudged through the issues like when a fighter has done well fighting in other divisions, making an offset regarding the volume of fights, in order to compare a modern fighter to a past great. My own feeling is that if a fighter is to be on an ATG list, and has fought in any division exclusively, other than light heavy, or heavy weight, that fighter should have faces at least one other ATG at prime. This also holds true for fighters who fought in more than one division as a kingpin. There are exceptions to this rule... But it helps me weed out fighters that might have relative accomplishments, but never fought fought an objectively equally capable opponent.

[QueensburyRules]

Absolutely but what I was saying was if you look at most historical Top 10 LHW ATG list, Greb beat a lot of them. Yet you don’t see him ranked there often.

That said I rank Ezzard Charles above both, on the ATG P4P list.

- - Main thing about Greb is a prolific fight record by the numbers, fighting a whose who of his era including beating many top heavyweights.

Helps also when he died young and still handsome on the operating table...

[Mr Mitts]

First of all, "Rolling stones" fighters like Archie Moorer, Hopkins, are always at a disadvantage when trying to place them in a division. It just makes it tough to compare them. GhostofDempsey made a great point along similar lines: Hopkins best wins were outside Middle Weight. Ghost refers specifically to Trinidad and De la Hoya, but the same logic applies to bigger fighters Hopkins beat, Pascal, Winky, Tarver...Of course Hagler and Monzon also had some resume issues as well with respect to quality of opponents, weight of opponents (Hagler)*, and to complicate matters, many (yours included) feel that Hopkins beat Taylor, essentially putting him in a better light when compared to the top of the Middle Weight pile.

*Leanard came up to fight Hagler, ditto for Tommy Hearns. Hopkins, like Monzon and Hagler was dominant against good solid opposition... fighters like Pavlick (for example). He shows well in the ring, BUT if we really scrutinize his early opposition he might be a notch below the very best because of the quality of opposition he fought... It is close, but I think this fact puts him below a bit.

I have never felt Hagler has any resume problem. It is not like he ducked anyone. Is Hearns a more dangerous opponent for a middleweight than Griffith? Unqualified yes for me. Was Leonard a more dangerous opponent for a middleweight than Napoles? Certainly in my book.

[Bronson66]

I think the vast majority would agree Greb, Robinson, Monzon and Hagler are the Mount Rushmore of middleweight greats. Does Bernard Hopkins have a claim to being rated fifth? The IBRO has him 8th. Is there an argument he should be rated above Mickey Walker, Bob Fitzsimmons or Stanley Ketchel at Middleweight?

Not for me.