Top 5 Middleweights.....Hopkins?

[billeau2]

I have never felt Hagler has any resume problem. It is not like he ducked anyone. Is Hearns a more dangerous opponent for a middleweight than Griffith? Unqualified yes for me. Was Leonard a more dangerous opponent for a middleweight than Napoles? Certainly in my book.

Problems is relative.. It is noted that Hearns and Sugar Ray L had to fight up in weight and that Hagler never really met a fellow prime middle ATG, much like Monzon... Just observations, certainly not indicating Hagler ducked anyone. I personally feel like Hagler fought tough fighters... guys who may not have all been limelight but were ****ers and had skills.

[Mr Mitts]

Problems is relative.. It is noted that Hearns and Sugar Ray L had to fight up in weight and that Hagler never really met a fellow prime middle ATG, much like Monzon... Just observations, certainly not indicating Hagler ducked anyone. I personally feel like Hagler fought tough fighters... guys who may not have all been limelight but were ****ers and had skills.

Did Robinson fight any prime ATG middleweights? I can't think of any unless someone categorizes Lamotta as such, which would be stretching it IMO. Who were the ATG middleweights fought by Greb? Walker was a welterweight, the same thing Marvin is continually lambasted for. Flowers was pretty good but I cannot say he is an ATG. I have to have a better reason than "Greb needs it."

You did say ATG, right, not just merely damned good?

Prime ATGs almost never fight each other, especially when it matters.

I have no reason to assume Graziano, for instance, would waste Mugabi or Roldan but he might very well get wasted himself. Graziano had already seen better days when he faced Robinson.

[JAB5239]

Did Robinson fight any prime ATG middleweights? I can't think of any unless someone categorizes Lamotta as such, which would be stretching it IMO. Who were the ATG middleweights fought by Greb? Walker was a welterweight, the same thing Marvin is continually lambasted for. Flowers was pretty good but I cannot say he is an ATG. I have to have a better reason than "Greb needs it."

You did say ATG, right, not just merely damned good?

Prime ATGs almost never fight each other, especially when it matters.

I have no reason to assume Graziano, for instance, would waste Mugabi or Roldan but he might very well get wasted himself. Graziano had already seen better days when he faced Robinson.

Walker is rated the 5th greatest middleweight by the IBRO. Yes, he was a welterweight. But when he moved up he proved more at middleweight than Marvin's comp after they moved up from welterweight.

Tiger Flowers is the IBRO 13th ranked middleweight, with an excellent resume at middleweight.

I agree prime all time greats almost never fight, but Grebs resume is littered with not only atg's, buy ones in their primes over a couple of weight classes. Robinsons resume is also very good, better than Haglers, but he wasn't as dominant in my opinion.

[QueensburyRules]

Did Robinson fight any prime ATG middleweights? I can't think of any unless someone categorizes Lamotta as such, which would be stretching it IMO. Who were the ATG middleweights fought by Greb? Walker was a welterweight, the same thing Marvin is continually lambasted for. Flowers was pretty good but I cannot say he is an ATG. I have to have a better reason than "Greb needs it."

You did say ATG, right, not just merely damned good?

Prime ATGs almost never fight each other, especially when it matters.

I have no reason to assume Graziano, for instance, would waste Mugabi or Roldan but he might very well get wasted himself. Graziano had already seen better days when he faced Robinson.

- - Most every HOF of the many HOFers Robby fought were Ring Ranked regardless of what informal conclusions you may draw.

When Tubby Lar who was still skinny fought Ali, Ali was not ranked, but lo and behold the Lineal Idjits claimed Lar won the Lineal title sorta like they would do if I whooped Lewie tomorrow.

[billeau2]

Did Robinson fight any prime ATG middleweights? I can't think of any unless someone categorizes Lamotta as such, which would be stretching it IMO. Who were the ATG middleweights fought by Greb? Walker was a welterweight, the same thing Marvin is continually lambasted for. Flowers was pretty good but I cannot say he is an ATG. I have to have a better reason than "Greb needs it."

You did say ATG, right, not just merely damned good?

Prime ATGs almost never fight each other, especially when it matters.

I have no reason to assume Graziano, for instance, would waste Mugabi or Roldan but he might very well get wasted himself. Graziano had already seen better days when he faced Robinson.

Im not "lambasting" merely mentioning a fact. Robinson was a greater welter and lightweight... Your rant is directed at the wrong person. And I favorably mentioned Hagler and Monzon as two great middle weights... You can look up Grebb's record and see who he fought.

[billeau2]

Walker is rated the 5th greatest middleweight by the IBRO. Yes, he was a welterweight. But when he moved up he proved more at middleweight than Marvin's comp after they moved up from welterweight.

Tiger Flowers is the IBRO 13th ranked middleweight, with an excellent resume at middleweight.

I agree prime all time greats almost never fight, but Grebs resume is littered with not only atg's, buy ones in their primes over a couple of weight classes. Robinsons resume is also very good, better than Haglers, but he wasn't as dominant in my opinion.

When it comes to greatness I look at Robinson like I look at Tunney as a heavyweight. Robinson was imo greatest at Welter and perhaps lightweight. Given how the Welter division is the most competative, or at least one of, i prefer to simplify matters and not put Robinson in the discussion regarding Middle weight.

When we look at great middle weights there is no doubt that Hagler and Monzon are top 5 and to me anyone top 5 could be argued into at least top 2, if not top 1 lol.

[Mr Mitts]

Im not "lambasting" merely mentioning a fact. Robinson was a greater welter and lightweight... Your rant is directed at the wrong person. And I favorably mentioned Hagler and Monzon as two great middle weights... You can look up Grebb's record and see who he fought.

First of all, it isn't a GD rant, lass, just because it was not said by you. Second of all, no one is attacking you. So settle down, Mary.

I can look up Greb's record? Like I haven't done that 10 times. What does it tell me? One thing it tells me is Greb fought a bunch of people I will never see. Those fighters also fought (exclusively) people I will never see. Other than Tunney, the reputation is just that--partly people responding to emotions seeded 60 years ago in one of those laudatory articles for hero worshipers in Ring magazine, and people amazing at his incredible record.

But I have more and more trouble ranking the greats of a division together unless the exact criteria are very clear. Are we looking at a list of their recorded accomplishments? That is fine, depending on the list criteria. But not of great use if the list is a who-beats-who. The statement you made elsewhere was a fighter could not himself be an ATG without having faced at least one other ATG in their respective primes. I assume that is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

I could rank Greb highly on his reputational status and a sprawling record; that is, on a list that considers everything. But in heads up matches the information is just not there.

[Mr Mitts]

Walker is rated the 5th greatest middleweight by the IBRO. Yes, he was a welterweight. But when he moved up he proved more at middleweight than Marvin's comp after they moved up from welterweight.

Tiger Flowers is the IBRO 13th ranked middleweight, with an excellent resume at middleweight.

I agree prime all time greats almost never fight, but Grebs resume is littered with not only atg's, buy ones in their primes over a couple of weight classes. Robinsons resume is also very good, better than Haglers, but he wasn't as dominant in my opinion.

The IBRO, or whatever the acronym. But should we take their lists more seriously than our own? Do they carry less agenda than we do? Really? They spout well known apocrypha ****ed with their own ideas and interpretations. It all supports what is already there--they keep building the legend on more guess work. They know Greb's mother's name, and I don't.

Instead of passing it off as "...record littered with..." why not mention a few you consider the best ATGs he faced and why, and tell me how this reflects on who-beats-who? I already know about Tunney and the Gibbons brothers. Chip is a famous name. There are plenty more that I have heard of but have no reason to rank on a who-beats-who list other than by reputation. Loughran is a great name. It is hard to say how good Bartlett and Levinsky were. Do you consider them ATGs too? When you fight an ATG is of critical importance: Mayweather's victory over Pacquiao means almost nothing; whereas Leonard's victory over Hearns means everything because they were exactly in their primes..

[JAB5239]

The IBRO, or whatever the acronym. But should we take their lists more seriously than our own? Do they carry less agenda than we do? Really? They spout well known apocrypha ****ed with their own ideas and interpretations. It all supports what is already there--they keep building the legend on more guess work. They know Greb's mother's name, and I don't.

I think the IBRO as a whole is more well reserched than the vast majority of boxing posters. They also have several excellent boxing historians that I know first hand have more knowledge and are better researchers than the vast majority here. And yes I'm sure they could tell you that Annie is the name of Grebs mother. I don't agree with everything they say, but I do respect their opinions and research.


Instead of passing it off as "...record littered with..." why not mention a few you consider the best ATGs he faced and why, and tell me how this reflects on who-beats-who? I already know about Tunney and the Gibbons brothers. Chip is a famous name. There are plenty more that I have heard of but have no reason to rank on a who-beats-who list other than by reputation. Loughran is a great name. It is hard to say how good Bartlett and Levinsky were. Do you consider them ATGs too? When you fight an ATG is of critical importance: Mayweather's victory over Pacquiao means almost nothing; whereas Leonard's victory over Hearns means everything because they were exactly in their primes..

Since you say Hearns was prime for Hagler (I agree), why don't we start with Mickey Walker? Walker was 24, Greb 31. Greb had a year before drawn with Loughran and Tunney, and had beaten Flowers. Was he still prime? Certainly arguable. On one hand he had close to 300 fights. On the other he showed little to no signs of slowing down. Walker was 24 and just coming into his prime in my opinion. He had some excellent wins before Greb, but the majority of his great wins came later. We do know he fought and beat top fighter from welterweight to heavyweight. I'd say it pretty subjective depending on what you're looking for. I could of course make either argument shine, yours or mine, if we were just looking to define careers by those particular fights. But myself, I define a career by its entire body of work. Hagler is great! I met hi. And have a signed IBHOF hat he gave me. But Harrys career was the greater.

[billeau2]

First of all, it isn't a GD rant, lass, just because it was not said by you. Second of all, no one is attacking you. So settle down, Mary.

I can look up Greb's record? Like I haven't done that 10 times. What does it tell me? One thing it tells me is Greb fought a bunch of people I will never see. Those fighters also fought (exclusively) people I will never see. Other than Tunney, the reputation is just that--partly people responding to emotions seeded 60 years ago in one of those laudatory articles for hero worshipers in Ring ****zine, and people amazing at his incredible record.

But I have more and more trouble ranking the greats of a division together unless the exact criteria are very clear. Are we looking at a list of their recorded accomplishments? That is fine, depending on the list criteria. But not of great use if the list is a who-beats-who. The statement you made elsewhere was a fighter could not himself be an ATG without having faced at least one other ATG in their respective primes. I assume that is a necessary but not sufficient condition.

I could rank Greb highly on his reputational status and a sprawling record; that is, on a list that considers everything. But in heads up matches the information is just not there.

Your directing it at me implying I have a certain opinion when all I was doing was being objective. Greb fought PLENTY of ATGs!! A cursory look would tell you so, no need for me to provide information, your a big boy.

Criteria is existential... I happen to think Jimmy Young may have been the best heavyweight in the seventies not named Ali... My criteria? watching the fights that I think he easily won that he was robbed... My criteria? it does not merit an argument because it really is an opinion and would frankly make a lousy argument lol. We take criterias and we then shape them to form our lists. Some criteria are better than others.

I never said a fighter could not be an ATG without fighting another ATG... I would not say such a thing... I see no need to restate what I said, as it might cause more confusion. I think it sounds clear but apparently it is not. I was merely speaking about one quality of a fighter's greatness SPECIFICALLY concerning ranking criteria... That is it. I was not ranking a fighter, stating how good they were... Though I did state at one point that Hagler and Monzon were top 5 which would probably imply they are ATG, though not necessarily.

From my perspective you came like a bull in a china shop defending Hagler against imagined slights. I have no doubt some may believe Hagler's resume might be cause for a ranking drubbing, but that is not my opinion. But jeez I even explained this to ya Mitts! I said that Monzin and Hagler both fought very tough fighters, some of whom were not necessarily lime lighters but had bukoo skills and were quality opponents.

Anyhow you know I luv you guys... Just clarifying my POV.