Top 5 Middleweights.....Hopkins?

[billeau2]

The IBRO, or whatever the acronym. But should we take their lists more seriously than our own? Do they carry less agenda than we do? Really? They spout well known apocrypha ****ed with their own ideas and interpretations. It all supports what is already there--they keep building the legend on more guess work. They know Greb's mother's name, and I don't.

Instead of passing it off as "...record littered with..." why not mention a few you consider the best ATGs he faced and why, and tell me how this reflects on who-beats-who? I already know about Tunney and the Gibbons brothers. Chip is a famous name. There are plenty more that I have heard of but have no reason to rank on a who-beats-who list other than by reputation. Loughran is a great name. It is hard to say how good Bartlett and Levinsky were. Do you consider them ATGs too? When you fight an ATG is of critical importance: Mayweather's victory over Pacquiao means almost nothing; whereas Leonard's victory over Hearns means everything because they were exactly in their primes..

This imo is very true... But MM there are subtle things here as well: Mayweather and Pac? No fighter even really risked very much. It was not a dominant pefformance, it really told us nothing about who was better. That is in addition to When they fought, as a means of evaluating how great a fighter was. What we can know are when fighters really put it on the line, risked a lot to win a fight... That is what makes the great fights between hagler, hearns Duran and Leonard so great.

The fighters who fought a lot were special... We will never be there again... And this meant great fighters met often. At some point to me, Even if a fighter did not fight an ATG prime in their best division, if they fought enough of them it means they met the benchmark. That is just an opinion... But A fighter like Armstrong, I would never even look to see who he went head to head with ATG level at light weight... because he fought so many ATG fighters.

My own lament comes from a fighter I am a real strong fan of... Andre Ward. I was hoping Kovalev would establish himself, so Andre could meet, or come close to meeting the ATG criteria. Alas, Kovalev did not and Andre beat some great fighters, but his resume will always lack that outstanding victory in any division... O well...

[Mr Mitts]

I am not so sure Walker would stand a chance against today's heavyweights. I feel sure he wouldn't. He fought cruiseres and light heavies masquerading as heavyweights by today's standards. Who is he going to beat? Even Joe Joyce would likely tear him up IMO. Hanging in there for a while with Schmeling means only little to me. Schmeling was no great puncher but he KOd little Mickey. Walker had a great left hook with no telegraph on it. Speaking of welterweights, Walker was probably better there--5' 7" is not really a middleweight's ideal build, though it's been done.

[JAB5239]

I am not so sure Walker would stand a chance against today's heavyweights. I feel sure he wouldn't. He fought cruiseres and light heavies masquerading as heavyweights by today's standards. Who is he going to beat? Even Joe Joyce would likely tear him up IMO. Hanging in there for a while with Schmeling means only little to me. Schmeling was no great puncher but he KOd little Mickey. Walker had a great left hook with no telegraph on it. Speaking of welterweights, Walker was probably better there--5' 7" is not really a middleweight's ideal build, though it's been done.

It's irrelevant how he would do against today's heavyweights as it would be to ask how Hagler would do against them. My point is that he is an all time great middleweight beaten by Greb while in his prime. Walker is basically the same size as Canelo Alvarez. His resume is excellent, and he proved he could move up in weight and be very successful. That right there is a feather in the cap of Harry Greb's greatness.

How he or Greb would have done against Hagler I have no idea. Hagler is as tough a middlweight that's ever lived and very skillful. But his resume and dominance don't hold up to Greb's in my humble opinio, and I cannot rank him higher. I believe many others, certainly the majority at the IBRO and many other boxing scribes see it the same way. I'm not parroting what they say, but what I see personally.

[Mr Mitts]

It's irrelevant how he would do against today's heavyweights as it would be to ask how Hagler would do against them. My point is that he is an all time great middleweight beaten by Greb while in his prime. Walker is basically the same size as Canelo Alvarez. His resume is excellent, and he proved he could move up in weight and be very successful. That right there is a feather in the cap of Harry Greb's greatness.

How he or Greb would have done against Hagler I have no idea. Hagler is as tough a middlweight that's ever lived and very skillful. But his resume and dominance don't hold up to Greb's in my humble opinio, and I cannot rank him higher. I believe many others, certainly the majority at the IBRO and many other boxing scribes see it the same way. I'm not parroting what they say, but what I see personally.

You don't have to parrot it--it has been instilled in you over the years of reading hero worshiping accounts by hyperbolic hacks, just like it was instilled in me. I grew up idolizing Greb and Walker. Now I take another look.

So, what do you know about Mickey's single punch power? I could see that left hook doing real damage to a welterweight. Welterweight? What is the source of that division's name?

[QueensburyRules]

- - Marv had a 4yr overlap with Monzon, yet was never ready for him.

[Bronson66]

My 2 cents (and worth every penny!!!!!!):

All-Time Middleweights - Modern Era

1. Sam Langford
2. Harry Greb
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Carlos Monzon
5. "Marvelous" Marvin Hagler
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Marcel Cerdan
9. "Sugar" Ray Leonard
10. Roy Jones Jr.
11.Mickey Walker
12.Mike Gibbons
13.Bernard Hopkins
14.Jack “The Nonpareil” Dempsey
15 Gennadiy Golovkin
16.Jake LaMotta
17.Freddie Steel
18.Thomas Hearns
19.Tiger Flowers
20.Tony Zale
21.Charley Burley
22.Tommy Ryan
23.Marcel Thil
24.Charles "Kid" McCoy
25.Georges Carpentier
26.Rocky Graziano
27.Jeff Smith
28.**** Tiger
29.Roberto Duran
30.Billy Papke
32.Gene Fullmer
33.Holman Williams
34.Mike O’Dowd
35.Les Darcy
36.Eddie McGootry
37.Emile Griffith
38.Saul "Canelo" Alvarez
39.Eddie Booker
40.Frank Klaus
41.Al Hostak
42.Buck Crouse
43.Georgie Abrams
44.Lou Brouillard
45.Jimmy Clabby
46.Leo Houck
47.Vince Dundee
48.Rodrigo Valdez
49.Mike McCallum
50.Teddy Yarosz
51.Nino Benvenuti
52.Joey Giardello
53.James Toney
54.Ken Overlin
55.Al McCoy
56.Carmen Basilio
57."Bad" Benny Briscoe
58.Sergio Martinez
59.Laszlo Papp
60.Mike O'Dowd
61.Julian Jackson
62.George Chip
63.Lloyd Marshall
64.Carl "Bobo" Olsen
65.Ceferino Garcia
66.Fred Apostoli
67.Gustav Scholz
68.Kelly Pavlik
69.Michael Nunn
70.Randy Turpin
71.Charles Humez
72.Chris Eubank
73.Sumbu Kalambay
74.Nigel Benn
75.Johnny Wilson
76.Alan Minter
77.Ace Hudkins
78.Gerald McClellan
79.Paul Pender
80.Arthur Abraham
81.Robert Villemain
82.Ronald "Winky" Wright
83.Jermall Charlo
84.Vito Antuofermo
85.Rene DeVos
86.Jack Chase
87.Hugo Corro
88.Terry Downs
89.Holly Mims
90.Miguel Cotto
91.Dave Sands
92.Hugo Kelly
93.Jock "Rochdale Thunderbolt" McAvoy
94."Cyclone" Johnny Thompson
95.Dave Shade
95.George Benton
97.Clarence Alabama Kid
98."Allentown" Joe Gans
99.Young Ahearn
100.Mike Donovan
101.Jermain Taylor
102.Ben "Belter" Brown
103.Steve Collins
104.Denny "Bulldog" Harrington
105.Leo Lomski
106.John "The Beast" Mugabi
107.Frank Moody
108.William "Gorilla" Jones
109.Kenny Watkins
110.George Rooke
111.Evelio "Kid" Turnero
112.Frank Battaglia
113.Johnny Howard
114.John David Jackson
115.Frankie Schoell
116.Elsworth "Spider" Webb
117.Joey Archer
118.Steve Belloise
119.Antonio Fernandez
120.Billy Soose
121.Mustafa Hamsho
122.Eduardo Lausse
123.Ignasio Ara
124.Ruben "Hurricane" Carter
125.Jean Claude Bouttier
126.Edward McGlinchey
127.Percey "Pal" Reed
128.Rory Calhoun
129.Ben Jeby
130.Cyrille Delannoit
131.Ralph "Tiger" Jones
132.Rocky Castellani
133.Bobby Boyd
134.Jackie Clark
135.Bobby "Boogaloo" Watts
136.Herol "Bomber" Graham
137.Jock Malone
138.Laurent Dauthuille
139.Bert Lytell
140.Charley Joseph
141.Floentino Fernandez
142.Tiberio Mitri
143.Juan Domingo Roldan
144.Yama Bahama
145.Willie "The Worm" Monroe
146.Tony Mundine Sr.
147.Fred Henneberry
148.Willis "Shorty" Hogue
149.Solly Krieger
150.Reggie Johnson
151.Jack Hood
152.Gratien Tonna
153.Babe Risko
154.Felix Sturm
155.Kell Brook
156.Paul Pirrone
157.William Joppy
158.**** Turpin
159.Tony Sibson
160.Luis Folledo
161."Sugar" Ray Seales
162.Dwight Davidson
163.Tom Bogs
164.Carmen Barth
165.Sam Soliman
166.Keith Holmes
167.Tony Licata
168.Daniel Jacobs
169.Ossie Stewart
170.Salvatore Affinito
171.Lamar Parks
172.Artie Townie
173.Gene "Silent" Hairston
174.Daniel Geale
175.Miguel de Oliveira
176.Curtis Parker
177.Young Terry
178."Dangerous" Don Lee
179.Meyer Grace
180.Joe "Bolo" Blackwood
181.Al Trainor
182.Rosy Baker
183.Marco Antonio Rubio
184.Howard Eastman
185.Mel "Killer" Brown
186.Gomeo Brennan
187.Walter Cartier
188.Eugene "Cyclone" Hart
189.Wilford Scypion
190.Joe Carter
191.Nasim Max Cohen
192.Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
193.Atilio Sabatino
191.William "Caveman" Lee
192.Jackie Burke
193.Hacine Cherifi
194.Harry Balsamo
195.Jorge Castro
196.David Lemieux
197.Grzegorz Proksa
198.Johnny Rossi
199.Martin Murray
200.Kid Leonard

WTFF!
Leonard at 9!!!! Based on what?
Cerdan doesnt belong in the top 10,and in any case should not rank above Thil.imo.
Williams beat
Chase
Wade
Burley
Moore
Cocoa Kid
Satterfield
Tunero
Marshall
Basora
Lytell
Belloise
And you've got him 7 places below Graziano?

Marshall at ,or near 160lbs beat
Chase
Williams
Burley
Hogue
Broulliard
Yarosz
Overlin
And you rate him below Papp and Al McCoy?
Who did 147lbs Dempsey beat to put him in the top 14 all time ?

Godawful list!

[JAB5239]

You don't have to parrot it--it has been instilled in you over the years of reading hero worshiping accounts by hyperbolic hacks, just like it was instilled in me. I grew up idolizing Greb and Walker. Now I take another look.

So, what do you know about Mickey's single punch power? I could see that left hook doing real damage to a welterweight. Welterweight? What is the source of that division's name?

Lmao.....hero worshipping accounts, really? I've read newspaper accounts from back then, other fighters opinions, and let's face it, the resume doesn't lie. Walker is an ATG middleweight beaten by Greb, in his prime. Tiger Flower is another. So getting back on track, this is why Greb rates higher than Hagler. He beat more accomplished middleweights and proved he could move up and beat proven ATG lightheavyweights, something Marvin never did.

[Mr Mitts]

My 2 cents (and worth every penny!!!!!!):

All-Time Middleweights - Modern Era

1. Sam Langford
2. Harry Greb
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Carlos Monzon
5. "Marvelous" Marvin Hagler
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Marcel Cerdan
9. "Sugar" Ray Leonard
10. Roy Jones Jr.
11.Mickey Walker
12.Mike Gibbons
13.Bernard Hopkins
14.Jack “The Nonpareil” Dempsey
15 Gennadiy Golovkin
16.Jake LaMotta
17.Freddie Steel
18.Thomas Hearns
19.Tiger Flowers
20.Tony Zale
21.Charley Burley
22.Tommy Ryan
23.Marcel Thil
24.Charles "Kid" McCoy
25.Georges Carpentier
26.Rocky Graziano
27.Jeff Smith
28.**** Tiger
29.Roberto Duran
30.Billy Papke
32.Gene Fullmer
33.Holman Williams
34.Mike O’Dowd
35.Les Darcy
36.Eddie McGootry
37.Emile Griffith
38.Saul "Canelo" Alvarez
39.Eddie Booker
40.Frank Klaus
41.Al Hostak
42.Buck Crouse
43.Georgie Abrams
44.Lou Brouillard
45.Jimmy Clabby
46.Leo Houck
47.Vince Dundee
48.Rodrigo Valdez
49.Mike McCallum
50.Teddy Yarosz
51.Nino Benvenuti
52.Joey Giardello
53.James Toney
54.Ken Overlin
55.Al McCoy
56.Carmen Basilio
57."Bad" Benny Briscoe
58.Sergio Martinez
59.Laszlo Papp
60.Mike O'Dowd
61.Julian Jackson
62.George Chip
63.Lloyd Marshall
64.Carl "Bobo" Olsen
65.Ceferino Garcia
66.Fred Apostoli
67.Gustav Scholz
68.Kelly Pavlik
69.Michael Nunn
70.Randy Turpin
71.Charles Humez
72.Chris Eubank
73.Sumbu Kalambay
74.Nigel Benn
75.Johnny Wilson
76.Alan Minter
77.Ace Hudkins
78.Gerald McClellan
79.Paul Pender
80.Arthur Abraham
81.Robert Villemain
82.Ronald "Winky" Wright
83.Jermall Charlo
84.Vito Antuofermo
85.Rene DeVos
86.Jack Chase
87.Hugo Corro
88.Terry Downs
89.Holly Mims
90.Miguel Cotto
91.Dave Sands
92.Hugo Kelly
93.Jock "Rochdale Thunderbolt" McAvoy
94."Cyclone" Johnny Thompson
95.Dave Shade
95.George Benton
97.Clarence Alabama Kid
98."Allentown" Joe Gans
99.Young Ahearn
100.Mike Donovan
101.Jermain Taylor
102.Ben "Belter" Brown
103.Steve Collins
104.Denny "Bulldog" Harrington
105.Leo Lomski
106.John "The Beast" Mugabi
107.Frank Moody
108.William "Gorilla" Jones
109.Kenny Watkins
110.George Rooke
111.Evelio "Kid" Turnero
112.Frank Battaglia
113.Johnny Howard
114.John David Jackson
115.Frankie Schoell
116.Elsworth "Spider" Webb
117.Joey Archer
118.Steve Belloise
119.Antonio Fernandez
120.Billy Soose
121.Mustafa Hamsho
122.Eduardo Lausse
123.Ignasio Ara
124.Ruben "Hurricane" Carter
125.Jean Claude Bouttier
126.Edward McGlinchey
127.Percey "Pal" Reed
128.Rory Calhoun
129.Ben Jeby
130.Cyrille Delannoit
131.Ralph "Tiger" Jones
132.Rocky Castellani
133.Bobby Boyd
134.Jackie Clark
135.Bobby "Boogaloo" Watts
136.Herol "Bomber" Graham
137.Jock Malone
138.Laurent Dauthuille
139.Bert Lytell
140.Charley Joseph
141.Floentino Fernandez
142.Tiberio Mitri
143.Juan Domingo Roldan
144.Yama Bahama
145.Willie "The Worm" Monroe
146.Tony Mundine Sr.
147.Fred Henneberry
148.Willis "Shorty" Hogue
149.Solly Krieger
150.Reggie Johnson
151.Jack Hood
152.Gratien Tonna
153.Babe Risko
154.Felix Sturm
155.Kell Brook
156.Paul Pirrone
157.William Joppy
158.**** Turpin
159.Tony Sibson
160.Luis Folledo
161."Sugar" Ray Seales
162.Dwight Davidson
163.Tom Bogs
164.Carmen Barth
165.Sam Soliman
166.Keith Holmes
167.Tony Licata
168.Daniel Jacobs
169.Ossie Stewart
170.Salvatore Affinito
171.Lamar Parks
172.Artie Townie
173.Gene "Silent" Hairston
174.Daniel Geale
175.Miguel de Oliveira
176.Curtis Parker
177.Young Terry
178."Dangerous" Don Lee
179.Meyer Grace
180.Joe "Bolo" Blackwood
181.Al Trainor
182.Rosy Baker
183.Marco Antonio Rubio
184.Howard Eastman
185.Mel "Killer" Brown
186.Gomeo Brennan
187.Walter Cartier
188.Eugene "Cyclone" Hart
189.Wilford Scypion
190.Joe Carter
191.Nasim Max Cohen
192.Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
193.Atilio Sabatino
191.William "Caveman" Lee
192.Jackie Burke
193.Hacine Cherifi
194.Harry Balsamo
195.Jorge Castro
196.David Lemieux
197.Grzegorz Proksa
198.Johnny Rossi
199.Martin Murray
200.Kid Leonard

Do you feel Ketchel with his style would beat Ray Leonard then? What else is your list based on? Does Joppy really beat Turpin and Basilio, or are other criteria involved? No challenge, just an honest question. Did you compose this list yourself? Pretty impressive list, whether I agree or disagree with it in every particular..

[Bronson66]

My 2 cents (and worth every penny!!!!!!):

All-Time Middleweights - Modern Era

1. Sam Langford
2. Harry Greb
3. Sugar Ray Robinson
4. Carlos Monzon
5. "Marvelous" Marvin Hagler
6. Stanley Ketchel
7. Bob Fitzsimmons
8. Marcel Cerdan
9. "Sugar" Ray Leonard
10. Roy Jones Jr.
11.Mickey Walker
12.Mike Gibbons
13.Bernard Hopkins
14.Jack “The Nonpareil” Dempsey
15 Gennadiy Golovkin
16.Jake LaMotta
17.Freddie Steel
18.Thomas Hearns
19.Tiger Flowers
20.Tony Zale
21.Charley Burley
22.Tommy Ryan
23.Marcel Thil
24.Charles "Kid" McCoy
25.Georges Carpentier
26.Rocky Graziano
27.Jeff Smith
28.**** Tiger
29.Roberto Duran
30.Billy Papke
32.Gene Fullmer
33.Holman Williams
34.Mike O’Dowd
35.Les Darcy
36.Eddie McGootry
37.Emile Griffith
38.Saul "Canelo" Alvarez
39.Eddie Booker
40.Frank Klaus
41.Al Hostak
42.Buck Crouse
43.Georgie Abrams
44.Lou Brouillard
45.Jimmy Clabby
46.Leo Houck
47.Vince Dundee
48.Rodrigo Valdez
49.Mike McCallum
50.Teddy Yarosz
51.Nino Benvenuti
52.Joey Giardello
53.James Toney
54.Ken Overlin
55.Al McCoy
56.Carmen Basilio
57."Bad" Benny Briscoe
58.Sergio Martinez
59.Laszlo Papp
60.Mike O'Dowd
61.Julian Jackson
62.George Chip
63.Lloyd Marshall
64.Carl "Bobo" Olsen
65.Ceferino Garcia
66.Fred Apostoli
67.Gustav Scholz
68.Kelly Pavlik
69.Michael Nunn
70.Randy Turpin
71.Charles Humez
72.Chris Eubank
73.Sumbu Kalambay
74.Nigel Benn
75.Johnny Wilson
76.Alan Minter
77.Ace Hudkins
78.Gerald McClellan
79.Paul Pender
80.Arthur Abraham
81.Robert Villemain
82.Ronald "Winky" Wright
83.Jermall Charlo
84.Vito Antuofermo
85.Rene DeVos
86.Jack Chase
87.Hugo Corro
88.Terry Downs
89.Holly Mims
90.Miguel Cotto
91.Dave Sands
92.Hugo Kelly
93.Jock "Rochdale Thunderbolt" McAvoy
94."Cyclone" Johnny Thompson
95.Dave Shade
95.George Benton
97.Clarence Alabama Kid
98."Allentown" Joe Gans
99.Young Ahearn
100.Mike Donovan
101.Jermain Taylor
102.Ben "Belter" Brown
103.Steve Collins
104.Denny "Bulldog" Harrington
105.Leo Lomski
106.John "The Beast" Mugabi
107.Frank Moody
108.William "Gorilla" Jones
109.Kenny Watkins
110.George Rooke
111.Evelio "Kid" Turnero
112.Frank Battaglia
113.Johnny Howard
114.John David Jackson
115.Frankie Schoell
116.Elsworth "Spider" Webb
117.Joey Archer
118.Steve Belloise
119.Antonio Fernandez
120.Billy Soose
121.Mustafa Hamsho
122.Eduardo Lausse
123.Ignasio Ara
124.Ruben "Hurricane" Carter
125.Jean Claude Bouttier
126.Edward McGlinchey
127.Percey "Pal" Reed
128.Rory Calhoun
129.Ben Jeby
130.Cyrille Delannoit
131.Ralph "Tiger" Jones
132.Rocky Castellani
133.Bobby Boyd
134.Jackie Clark
135.Bobby "Boogaloo" Watts
136.Herol "Bomber" Graham
137.Jock Malone
138.Laurent Dauthuille
139.Bert Lytell
140.Charley Joseph
141.Floentino Fernandez
142.Tiberio Mitri
143.Juan Domingo Roldan
144.Yama Bahama
145.Willie "The Worm" Monroe
146.Tony Mundine Sr.
147.Fred Henneberry
148.Willis "Shorty" Hogue
149.Solly Krieger
150.Reggie Johnson
151.Jack Hood
152.Gratien Tonna
153.Babe Risko
154.Felix Sturm
155.Kell Brook
156.Paul Pirrone
157.William Joppy
158.**** Turpin
159.Tony Sibson
160.Luis Folledo
161."Sugar" Ray Seales
162.Dwight Davidson
163.Tom Bogs
164.Carmen Barth
165.Sam Soliman
166.Keith Holmes
167.Tony Licata
168.Daniel Jacobs
169.Ossie Stewart
170.Salvatore Affinito
171.Lamar Parks
172.Artie Townie
173.Gene "Silent" Hairston
174.Daniel Geale
175.Miguel de Oliveira
176.Curtis Parker
177.Young Terry
178."Dangerous" Don Lee
179.Meyer Grace
180.Joe "Bolo" Blackwood
181.Al Trainor
182.Rosy Baker
183.Marco Antonio Rubio
184.Howard Eastman
185.Mel "Killer" Brown
186.Gomeo Brennan
187.Walter Cartier
188.Eugene "Cyclone" Hart
189.Wilford Scypion
190.Joe Carter
191.Nasim Max Cohen
192.Julio Cesar Chavez Jr.
193.Atilio Sabatino
191.William "Caveman" Lee
192.Jackie Burke
193.Hacine Cherifi
194.Harry Balsamo
195.Jorge Castro
196.David Lemieux
197.Grzegorz Proksa
198.Johnny Rossi
199.Martin Murray
200.Kid Leonard

Bert Lytell beat;
Burley
Smith giving him10lbs
Williams
Cocoa Kid
Basora
And you have him at number139?
Below guys like
Ben Brown
Ignacio Ara
Jackie Clark
Percey Reed
Johnny Howard
Ludicrous!

[Dr. Z]

I think the vast majority would agree Greb, Robinson, Monzon and Hagler are the Mount Rushmore of middleweight greats. Does Bernard Hopkins have a claim to being rated fifth? The IBRO has him 8th. Is there an argument he should be rated above Mickey Walker, Bob Fitzsimmons or Stanley Ketchel at Middleweight?

Hopkins in the top 5? Nope.