Does Fury's Performance With Ngannou Affect His Standing?

[max baer]

Klitschko looks like ET in that picture, no lie.

ha ha it was that uppercut by joshua! aaa2klitschko.jpg

[Willie Pep 229]

More and more Fury looks like a 'Willard' ready for some 'Dempsey' to come along and brutalized him.

Maybe Uysk?

How do we now feel about Marciano taking on the Fury we saw last night?

[billeau2]

I'm gonna say no.

MMA fighters are superior strikers.

Their hand eye coordination is developed through training and fighting with pretty much every type of strike with every limb. So if you apply that ability the right way through boxing you get a case like 0-0 Ngannou arguably beating the best HW of this generation or Anderson Silva clowning a former world champion. Or the number of kickboxers and Muay Thai fighters who managed to make it to world class boxing level at a frighteningly quick pace, even winning world titles.

There's more to fighting than just fisticuffs. If more boxing fans got their heads out of their asses this loss wouldn't even be a big deal. I'm sure Billeau would agree with this, he knows more about martial arts than probably anybody in here.

Thank you for the vote of confidence, for what it is worth there are a couple of different forces at work here. One always excels at what they train for. Boxers train very specifically for the ring, and while this guarantees experience, it does allow for others to have similar skills. fighting with gloves is very different than an open hand. Boxers break their hands a lot in street fights, heck, everyone does. Saw it often as a bouncer. Boxers learn how to hit hard with gloves on, against others in a similar scenario.

Can an MMA striker make it to the world class stage? Can a Thai fighter do so? It is possible. Many Thai fighters do well, including the propensity to take punishment... But have limited movement skills and hand techniques. BUT, many fighters like Pacman have footwork based on SouthEast Asian boxing... fast and straight off the main fighting line.

Another way to look at it: Anyone remember in the original Star Trek, Spock plays a game of chess with 3 boards? MMA guys, by analogy are like a 3 board versus a one board game of chess. Everything they do has to consider more possible counters. So this ability to think and stick to a plan, perhaps best demonstrated by Francis against Fury, is an advantage that can offset a boxers more limited focus. Not that this means less technical chops, but there is something to be said for the difference between: "he has no power in his left, so stay away from his right," versus, "he is a world class grappler, but you can catch him with a shot, don't let him close, watch his counter to the punch, and don't get pulled down."

[billeau2]

The unparalleled brilliance of the posts above will be difficut to match. The conjecture that the best punchers wilfully prefer lingering in the payrate minor leagues or the Doctor's usual, oft repeated misdiagnosis, these are pure gold.

Fury got lazy. Gained a lot of weight and took it off way too fast (well, some of it anyway), evidenced by exhibiting the skin of a Shar Pei puppy.

For his part, Ngannou is a lifelong Boxer who bolted on some submission grappling and offensive/defense kicking skills as he rolled along, and is arguably the best heavyweight fighter athlete the UFC has ever signed.
I warned us all of this potential, did I not?
What's the big deal?

I'm inclined to congratulate Francis, welcome him to the big time and await his next fight excitedly.
I'm inclined to see if Fury is still capable of getting in real shape for a real fight, and finish what Daniel Dubois started come February before I can answer the question.
After that, and any other fights that Fury executes before he retires will dictate his place among the other big boys of the past 10, 30, 50, 150 years.

I will say this about what that fight did for Fury. It made haters forget that gif of him punching himself and the knockdown against Steve Cunningham.

MMA is in its infancy. And where as boxing, had a long line of apprenticeships, where there were avenues to learn "tricks" of the trade... Incidentally, when Ju Jutsu was first introduced to the international audience, many texts referred to it as "tricks." Non withstanding that these Arts came from long established systems used by one of the top warrior societies, the Japanese did not want international gazers to see this aspect of these arts. Not until Judo came along, Kano the apologist made sure his teams won and that the arts were defanged so they would be wholesome... And this idea of "tricks" also went along nicely in the sort of jargon for learning the ropes in boxing. And so it was a marriage made in heaven. For their part, the Koryu system heads in Japan, many of whom were Japanese second world war abusers, were content to make sure Japan retained superiority by letting the Anglos think Ju Jutsu was simply an Oriental clever disorganized mass of dirty things one could do to another to gain an advantage in combat.

Alas, boxing has at least a century or so to fight against different systems, in places like the Hawian Islands where a polyglot of Chinese, japanese and native systems of combat flourished in a crucible... MMA matches were customary. Brazil, by comparison had a sopisticated mix of Japanese arts and every wrestling style there was... But boxing never was as big. And it was Brazil that eventually brought MMA to the reckognition of the masses.

But what did Brazil bring? It was only 30 some years ago that the Gracies, who were professional fighters, fighting under the hoax that they were martial artists in the same way, a plumber who did Kempo was, came to America and promoted the UFC. And in that time as other people caught up, only fairly recently do we see things like: "gee when a karate kick is done properly it breaks legs!" Or, "gee there are a limited amount of techniques that are useful in the ring, maybe I should be familiar with all of them!" etc etc etc... Which is to say: We do not quite know yet what the apogee of striking, or any skills will be in MMA. Francis might well be a harbinger of things to come, where the striking is getting better, and/or, more appropriate for a boxing context.

Boxing has had generations to develop. But MMA has evolved very fast... I do think under these circumstances, when You Tubers are fighting professional boxing men, and where professional boxers are doing less and less in the ring, fighting for a good deal as Amatuers, where as once they fought primarily as professionals, mentored and learning the "tricks" of the trade... Boxing may well lose its privaleged position as an elite endevour that is untouchable to the other combat sports. Time will tell!

[ShoulderRoll]

You literally do give him a pass because of the nonsense you're spouting here by saying his explanation is "believable" when you have absolutely no reason to take that position.

As explained to you countless times;

The fact Mexico has a Clen issue, does not make Canelo's excuse plausible.

The fact he ate at restaurants in Mexico, does not make his excuse plausible.

Those facts make Canelo’s explanation believable. We don’t know if things really happened as he said, but they very well could have based on clen being commonly found in Mexican meat and him eating at several restaurants in Mexico including a steakhouse.

And I don’t give Canelo a pass. I have repeatedly said that if PEDs are found in your system then you need to be punished regardless of the reason. Which Canelo was, he got suspended for 6 months while to date Conor Benn has yet to receive any punishment.

You've again lied there and said "he was seen having a steak", no he wasn't seen having a steak. He is seen sitting at a table with no food on it. Where is your evidence that he ate any meat at all in any of these restaurants? You don't have any. And even if you did, that doesn't prove any of it was contaminated anyway.

None of the above has any bearing on his failed test.

I didn’t lie. Unless the Daily Mail also lied, when they stated that “Sonora Grill was visited twice and the first time saw him eat steak alongside Clinton.”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/bo...l-Clinton.html

Conor Benn situation is a carbon copy, he is blaming his failed test of tainted food. Both of them have zero evidence that that's the case. Yet you slate one and give the other a pass.

You have this hard stance on PED's, accusing Ngannou here with no evidence yet when Canelo fails a drug test, you deem it "plausible" that it was tainted meat because he was in Mexico and ate food there. It's embarrassing and you should stop.

But this has been explained to you ad nauseum and you're too ****** to compute it.

The Conor Benn situation IS NOT a carbon copy. Clomiphene is NOT commonly found in eggs in Britain since its use in egg production is prohibited. And Benn hasn’t provided a list of places where he might have obtained tainted eggs from, nor was he publicly seen at any such places. That alone makes his story less believable. The differences between the two situations are so obvious that I shouldn’t even have to explain them.

[ShoulderRoll]

You said Canelo was clean because he did Vada for Charlo despite the fact passing a VADA testing procedure does not mean you are not using PED's.

But yet here you are saying Ngannous is "assuredly" on PED's despite the fact he's just passed a VADA testing procedure.

So which one is it?

Canelo has done VADA testing many times, including year round for a stretch. As well as for 4 training camps in the space of 12 months.

Ngannou comes from a sport that is even more notorious for PED use than boxing, where VADA testing is NOT widely used.

That’s what he was doing and where he was building his body before this first-time foray into boxing.

[IronDanHamza]

Those facts make Canelo’s explanation believable. We don’t know if things really happened as he said, but they very well could have based on clen being commonly found in Mexican meat and him eating at several restaurants in Mexico including a steakhouse.

And I don’t give Canelo a pass. I have repeatedly said that if PEDs are found in your system then you need to be punished regardless of the reason. Which Canelo was, he got suspended for 6 months while to date Conor Benn has yet to receive any punishment.



I didn’t lie. Unless the Daily Mail also lied, when they stated that “Sonora Grill was visited twice and the first time saw him eat steak alongside Clinton.”

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/bo...l-Clinton.html



The Conor Benn situation IS NOT a carbon copy. Clomiphene is NOT commonly found in eggs in Britain since its use in egg production is prohibited. And Benn hasn’t provided a list of places where he might have obtained tainted eggs from, nor was he publicly seen at any such places. That alone makes his story less believable. The differences between the two situations are so obvious that I shouldn’t even have to explain them.

Again, for the umpteenth time, you need to look up how the burden of proof works.

It is not believable or any more believable than any other excuse anyone has had for PEDs in their system.

Being in Mexico, and eating food whilst in Mexico, has literally no bearing what so ever on how drugs got into his system.

Just like Conor Benn's egg excuse. They have as much evidence as each other; Zero.


He was seen eating Steak, by who? Where is the evidence that he ate a steak, or any meat at all for that matter whilst in Mexico?

The fact you're saying it's plausible and believable that he failed a test due to tainted meat is literally giving him a pass. You're making an excuse as to how it got into his system with zero evidence to do so.

[IronDanHamza]

Canelo has done VADA testing many times, including year round for a stretch. As well as for 4 training camps in the space of 12 months.

Ngannou comes from a sport that is even more notorious for PED use than boxing, where VADA testing is NOT widely used.

That’s what he was doing and where he was building his body before this one-time foray into boxing.

They're tested year round by USADA in the UFC.

And it's irrelevant anyway, you said Canelo is clean because he passed VADA for the Charlo fight alone.

Yet Ngannou passed the same test.

One is clean to you and the other is "assuredly on PED's".

They couldn't be a more clear double standard.

[ShoulderRoll]

Again, for the umpteenth time, you need to look up how the burden of proof works.

It is not believable or any more believable than any other excuse anyone has had for PEDs in their system.

Being in Mexico, and eating food whilst in Mexico, has literally no bearing what so ever on how drugs got into his system.

Just like Conor Benn's egg excuse. They have as much evidence as each other; Zero.


He was seen eating Steak, by who? Where is the evidence that he ate a steak, or any meat at all for that matter whilst in Mexico?

The fact you're saying it's plausible and believable that he failed a test due to tainted meat is literally giving him a pass. You're making an excuse as to how it got into his system with zero evidence to do so.

You seem hung up on your burden of proof strawman. But I’m not claiming that anything is proven, what I’m focusing on is how believable/plausible the explanations are.

Being in Mexico, and eating steak while in Mexico, could very well have bearing on how trace amounts of clenbuterol (consistent with eating tainted meat) might have gotten into Canelo’s system. The odds of that actually having happened are not unreasonable.

The odds of Conor Benn obtaining contaminated eggs in Britain? Where clomiphene is prohibited in egg production? They would have to be higher. Hence less believable.

It’s really not that hard to grasp, Dan. You just have to stop playing dumb.

[ShoulderRoll]

They're tested year round by USADA in the UFC.

And it's irrelevant anyway, you said Canelo is clean because he passed VADA for the Charlo fight alone.

Yet Ngannou passed the same test.

One is clean to you and the other is "assuredly on PED's".

They couldn't be a more clear double standard.

It’s not irrelevant, Canelo has done VADA testing multiple times in the last five years. Not just for Charlo.

Ngannou only once. The rest of that time he has been in the sport whose most prominent champion (Jon Jones) was caught using anabolic steroids.