Did Sugar Ray Robinson avoid the black murder's row?

[GhostofDempsey]

When did he turn down Burley what year what month?
What did he get for the fight with the lesser opponent ?
What would he have gotten for Burley?

Al this suposedly ****.
Could we have some facts please?

I take it that's another bet I've offered that you don't want to take up?

Geez, are you going senile or what? Go back and read my posts, I already posted this. You're stubborn as a mule and half as smart.

[Willie Pep 229]

The word "duck" should only be applied when a fighter avoids an obligation.

Just because one fighter challenges another fighter and the first fighter doesn't want the fight, doesn't constitute a "duck."

To believe that refusing any challenge that comes his way is a duck, is to take away a fighter's right to control his own career.

I would be more apt to accept someone calling Dempsey not fighting Wills a duck.

(For the record: I don't believe it was a duck because of all the external racial circumstances that existed at the time, in part because of the poision apple handed to all Black fighters of the 1920s because of Jack Johnson's boorish behavior.)

But this belief that SRR had to fight any fighter who challenged him is in my opinion nonsense.

I also do not believe it is fair to claim Henry Arnstrong ducked Burley. Armstrong did in-fact have an obligation to fight the number one contender at the time, but that was SRR, not Burley.

When Armstrong chose Zivic and not SRR that (maybe) was a duck.

But even that has circumstances attached to it. There was no doubt that the Zivic fight would bring in a bigger gate than two black fighters.

Armstrong and Zivic packed MSG to the rafters twice. At that point in 1942 SRR wasn't that popular, only beginning his third year campaigning; Zivic was already very popular in the New York area.

But nevertheless, maybe Armstrong ducked SRR. But never, 4th ranked Burley.

IMO the word duck is drastically overused on this forum.

[IronDanHamza]

I'm not being defensive but none of you have given any evidence that proves Robinson ducked any of the Row
You have said The Kid dropped Robinson in sparring and I take your word for it ,though you have offered no proof of it.

Robinson had a history of stiffing promoters and demanding more money or he wouldnt leave his dressing room he was a ****.

That doesnt mean he avoided fighters it means there wasnt sufficient financial incentive for him to fight them and honour contracts
Robinson fought Lamotta what 6 times?Conceding lumps of weight to him ,he did so because it was very financially remunerative for him to do it.
Look at the gates they drew and the money they made.
What would he have earned from fighting a washed up Cocoa Kid ? Fighting is a business and let me tell you its no fun being punched in the face!

He dropped him in sparring in August of 49 and that’s verified, you can look that up.

Like I said, the reason is irrelevant. He didn’t want to fight Cocoa Kid and that’s why he turned it down on two seperate occasions.

He signed to fight him in May of 49, and didn’t turn up to the arena. So what are we talking about here? Why sign to fight him and then not fight him? Because he didn’t want the fight obviously.


Its not a knock, some fights just don’t happen.

Mayweather didn’t fight Margarito, he fought Baldomir and Judah who were ranked higher than him, he even fought Mosley who knocked him out, but he still didn’t want that fight with Margarito.

This is Boxing, fighters rarely get everyone and often turn fighters down for whatever reason.

Robinson turned down Cocoa Kid.

[Dr. Z]

I'm not being defensive but none of you have given any evidence that proves Robinson ducked any of the Row
You have said The Kid dropped Robinson in sparring and I take your word for it ,though you have offered no proof of it.

Robinson had a history of stiffing promoters and demanding more money or he wouldnt leave his dressing room he was a ****.

That doesnt mean he avoided fighters it means there wasnt sufficient financial incentive for him to fight them and honour contracts
Robinson fought Lamotta what 6 times?Conceding lumps of weight to him ,he did so because it was very financially remunerative for him to do it.
Look at the gates they drew and the money they made.
What would he have earned from fighting a washed up Cocoa Kid ? Fighting is a business and let me tell you its no fun being punched in the face!

What did Robison make for each title defense, than ask yourself would he have made more vs. Archie Moore and the black murders row. Yes, he would have made more in many matches. Don't have access to that? Then why talk about it?.

Just like Joe Louis made more $ vs. Joe Walcott. Check the purses you dolt. Sugar Ray Robinson AVOIDED the black talent of the times. .

[Dr. Z]

He dropped him in sparring in August of 49 and that’s verified, you can look that up.

Like I said, the reason is irrelevant. He didn’t want to fight Cocoa Kid and that’s why he turned it down on two seperate occasions.

He signed to fight him in May of 49, and didn’t turn up to the arena. So what are we talking about here? Why sign to fight him and then not fight him? Because he didn’t want the fight obviously.


Its not a knock, some fights just don’t happen.

Mayweather didn’t fight Margarito, he fought Baldomir and Judah who were ranked higher than him, he even fought Mosley who knocked him out, but he still didn’t want that fight with Margarito.

This is Boxing, fighters rarely get everyone and often turn fighters down for whatever reason.

Robinson turned down Cocoa Kid.

You are whipping Ivich's @ss. I no expert on the murders row, but it appears that you are.

[Ivich]

What did Robison make for each title defense, than ask yourself would he have made more vs. Archie Moore and the black murders row. Yes, he would have made more in many matches. Don't have access to that? Then why talk about it?.

Just like Joe Louis made more $ vs. Joe Walcott. Check the purses you dolt. Sugar Ray Robinson AVOIDED the black talent of the times. .

When should he have fought Moore to get a big purse ? Moore was fighting for buttons in the early 40's and in the late 40's Moore was a light heavyweight In fact , in 1945 he was the number 1 contender for Lesnevich's title Whilst Robinson was a contender for the welterweight title!

FFS do some research !

Yes I have access to it ,unlike you I can read so I buy books !

Which fights would he have made more than in fights he made in fights he had ? Name them If you can't, why talk about them!
Recognize this? Its yours!
"1 and#2 must fight before that happens. And after that, the winner needs to pick top-ten opponents for his title defenses."
That's precisely what Robinson did ,instead of fighting a Murderers Row who were unranked in the 50's when he became middleweight champion!
Guys like;
Panter
Olsonx3
Fullmer x4
Giardello
Turpinx2
Castellani
Basiliox2
Barnes
Abrams
Villemainx2
Dellanoit
Pender x2
Lamotta x5
Graziano

Did Robinson avoid
Bell
Basora
Wilson
Costner
Wade
Jones
Turpin
Armstrong
Barnes
Mims
Hudson
Gavilan
All ranked black fighters.
Hoist With Your Own Petard! lol

[Ivich]

The word "duck" should only be applied when a fighter avoids an obligation.

Just because one fighter challenges another fighter and the first fighter doesn't want the fight, doesn't constitute a "duck."

To believe that refusing any challenge that comes his way is a duck, is to take away a fighter's right to control his own career.

I would be more apt to accept someone calling Dempsey not fighting Wills a duck.

(For the record: I don't believe it was a duck because of all the external racial circumstances that existed at the time, in part because of the poision apple handed to all Black fighters of the 1920s because of Jack Johnson's boorish behavior.)

But this belief that SRR had to fight any fighter who challenged him is in my opinion nonsense.

I also do not believe it is fair to claim Henry Arnstrong ducked Burley. Armstrong did in-fact have an obligation to fight the number one contender at the time, but that was SRR, not Burley.

When Armstrong chose Zivic and not SRR that (maybe) was a duck.

But even that has circumstances attached to it. There was no doubt that the Zivic fight would bring in a bigger gate than two black fighters.

Armstrong and Zivic packed MSG to the rafters twice. At that point in 1942 SRR wasn't that popular, only beginning his third year campaigning; Zivic was already very popular in the New York area.

But nevertheless, maybe Armstrong ducked SRR. But never, 4th ranked Burley.

IMO the word duck is drastically overused on this forum.

I think Armstrong emphatically established he was afraid of no man as did Robinson.

Armstrong may have opted for Zivic because he brought more to the table financially than did ,Burley and Cocoa Kid.

I think its pretty nauseating that Dr Z who has never competed as a boxer should ascribe fear to a professional fighter, particularly one of the stature of Sugar Ray Robinson ,who was still fighting ranked middleweights like;
Moyer
Harrington
Fernandez
Downes
Archer
Giardello

When in his 40's

[Dr. Z]

I think Armstrong emphatically established he was afraid of no man as did Robinson.

Armstrong may have opted for Zivic because he brought more to the table financially than did ,Burley and Cocoa Kid.

I think its pretty nauseating that Dr Z who has never competed as a boxer should ascribe fear to a professional fighter, particularly one of the stature of Sugar Ray Robinson ,who was still fighting ranked middleweights like;
Moyer
Harrington
Fernandez
Downes
Archer
Giardello

When in his 40's

So says you! You are wrong again.


What did Robison make for each title defense, than ask yourself would he have made more vs. Archie Moore ( middle weight champion ) and the black murders row. Yes, he would have made more in many matches. Don't have access to that? Then why talk about it? I showed you Robinson was willing to fight Jake LaMotta a middle when he was a welter.

Just like Joe Louis made more $ vs. Joe Walcott. Check the purses you dolt. Sugar Ray Robinson AVOIDED the black talent of the times.

No reply form you, of course.

[travestyny]

The paradox here is that you deny Champion Dempsey avoided his number 1 challenger Wills for 5 years and instead fought lower hanging fruit but accuse Robinson who was a contender for ducking men, when instead he fought men rated above them!

Now you see exactly what I mean about these clowns. They don't want the truth. It's all emotions and agenda.

[travestyny]

I would be more apt to accept someone calling Dempsey not fighting Wills a duck.

(For the record: I don't believe it was a duck because of all the external racial circumstances that existed at the time, in part because of the poision apple handed to all Black fighters of the 1920s because of Jack Johnson's boorish behavior.).

I'm not swerving this thread into another discussion of this, but that was a blatant duck that had nothing to do with Johnson, as many venues and promoters wanted that fight. The ONLY people who didn't want it was Dempsey and his team.