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Did Sugar Ray Robinson avoid the black murder's row?

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  • Did Sugar Ray Robinson avoid the black murder's row?

    The murders row. Their talent was undeniable and can be seen. I'm not going to list links to all of their fights. Each man fought at two least hall of fame opponents, in many cases more than that! Most members are inducted in boxing's hall of fame, Decades too late in my opinion.

    There were eight fighters that were feared who were middleweights who fought one another during the same era. They were tagged “Black Murderers Row” by writer Budd Schulberg.

    There were Charley Burley, Eddie “Black Dynamite” Booker, Jack Chase, Cocoa Kid, Bert Lytell, Lloyd Marshall, Aaron “Tiger” Wade and Holman Williams.


    Charley Burley, 83-12-2 (50), was out of Pittsburgh, PA. He fought from 1936-50. In 1992 he was inducted into the IBHOF and finally inducted into the Pennsylvania Boxing Hall of Fame in 2013. Go figure. Burley was the most feared of the eight. George Gainsford, manager of “Sugar” Ray Robinson omitted they “by-passed” Burley. “His style was such he would have counteracted Robinson’s,” said Gainsford. Johnny Ray, manager of Billy Conn, told matchmaker Art Rooney “never mention his name again”. Fritzie Zivic lost 2 out of 3 to Burley and had his manager Luke Carney take over Burley’s contract to ensure him he would never have to fight him again.

    Burley fought such fight as Cocoa Kid 1-0, Holman Williams 3-3-1, Jack Chase 3-0, Aaron Wade 1-0, Archie “Old Mongoose” Moore 1-0 and Bert Lytell 1-1. He had 10 different managers during his career.



    Eddie “Black Dynamite” Booker, 66-5-8 (34), of San Jose, CA, was inducted into the IBHOF in 2017. He fought from 1935-1944. He fought Holman Williams, 1-1-1, Cocoa Kid, 0-1, Archie Moore, 1-0-2, Lloyd Marshall 1-0 and Jack Chase 0-1. He was the CA state champion before losing that title to Chase. He was 7-2-1 in title bouts. Booker after defeating Holman Williams retired due to eye trouble at age 27.

    Jack “Young Joe Louis” Chase, 82-24-12 (36), was from Walsenburg, Colorado. He was the CA middleweight and light heavyweight champion. He fought Archie Moore, 0-3-1, Eddie Booker 1-0, Charley burley 0-2, Aaron Wade, 2-0-1, Lloyd Marshall, 0-2-1, Holman Williams 0-4, Cocoa Kid, 0-1 from 1936-48.

    Cocoa Kid, 177-56-11 (48), was born in Puerto Rico and lived in New Haven, CT. He was inducted into the IBHOF in 2012. He fought from 1929-48. He fought Holman Williams, 6-3-2, Charley Burley, 0-1-1, Eddie Booker, 1-0, Jack Chase, 1-0, Aaron Wade, 0-1, Archie Moore, 0-1, and Bert Lytell, 0-2. Yep you guessed it, he is in the HOF too.

    Southpaw Bert “Chocolate Kid” Lytell, 71-23-7 (24), was out of Oakland, CA. Fought from 1944-51. He fought Holman Williams, 1-1-1, Aaron Wade, 0-1, Cocoa Kid, 3-0, Charley Burley 1-1, and Archie Moore, 0-2.

    Lloyd Marshall, 70-25-4 (36), was out of Cleveland, OH. Fought from 1936-51. He fought Eddie Booker, 0-1, Charley Burley, 1-0, Holman Williams 1-2, Jack Chase, 0-0-1, Archie Moore, 0-2, Ezzard Charles, 1-2, Jake LaMotta, 1-0, and Joey Maxim, 1-0. He was inducted into the IBHOF in 2010.

    Aaron “Tigre” Wade, 61-16-6 (31), was out of San Francisco, CA. He fought from 1935-50. He fought Charley Burley, 0-3, Jack Chase, 0-2-1, Archie Moore, 1-0, Cocoa Kid, 1-0, Bert Lytell, 1-0, and Holman Williams, 0-1.

    Holman Williams, 146-31-11 (36), was out of Detroit, MI. He fought from 1932-48. He fought Cocoa Kid, 4-6-1, Eddie Booker, 1-1-1, Lloyd Marshall, 2-1, Jack Chase, 4-0, Aaron Wade, 2-1, Bert Lytell, 1-1-1, and Archie Moore, 1-1. His is in the HOF too.



    Well, that is a lot of talent. Sugar Ray did fight black Englishmen Randy Turpin. He was not part of the murders row group. He beat Robinson once and was in the lead losing the other time but lost on TKO. He did cut Robinson in both fights. Thoughts on this topic? What if Turpin was in the murder's row group? How would he do?


    Last edited by Dr. Z; 10-15-2023, 06:13 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
    There were eight fighters that were feared who were middleweights who fought one another during the same era. They were tagged “Black Murderers Row” by writer Budd Schulberg.

    There were Charley Burley, Eddie “Black Dynamite” Booker, Jack Chase, Cocoa Kid, Bert Lytell, Lloyd Marshall, Aaron “Tiger” Wade and Holman Williams.
    ​​​​​​​​​​​

    Charley Burley, 83-12-2 (50), was out of Pittsburgh, PA. He fought from 1936-50. In 1992 he was inducted into the IBHOF and finally inducted into the Pennsylvania Boxing Hall of Fame in 2013. Go figure. Burley was the most feared of the eight. George Gainsford, manager of “Sugar” Ray Robinson omitted they “by-passed” Burley. “His style was such he would have counteracted Robinson’s,” said Gainsford. Johnny Ray, manager of Billy Conn, told matchmaker Art Rooney “never mention his name again”. Fritzie Zivic lost 2 out of 3 to Burley and had his manager Luke Carney take over Burley’s contract to ensure him he would never have to fight him again.

    Burley fought such fight as Cocoa Kid 1-0, Holman Williams 3-3-1, Jack Chase 3-0, Aaron Wade 1-0, Archie “Old Mongoose” Moore 1-0 and Bert Lytell 1-1. He had 10 different managers during his career.



    Eddie “Black Dynamite” Booker, 66-5-8 (34), of San Jose, CA, was inducted into the IBHOF in 2017. He fought from 1935-1944. He fought Holman Williams, 1-1-1, Cocoa Kid, 0-1, Archie Moore, 1-0-2, Lloyd Marshall 1-0 and Jack Chase 0-1. He was the CA state champion before losing that title to Chase. He was 7-2-1 in title bouts. Booker after defeating Holman Williams retired due to eye trouble at age 27.

    Jack “Young Joe Louis” Chase, 82-24-12 (36), was from Walsenburg, Colorado. He was the CA middleweight and light heavyweight champion. He fought Archie Moore, 0-3-1, Eddie Booker 1-0, Charley burley 0-2, Aaron Wade, 2-0-1, Lloyd Marshall, 0-2-1, Holman Williams 0-4, Cocoa Kid, 0-1 from 1936-48.

    Cocoa Kid, 177-56-11 (48), was born in Puerto Rico and lived in New Haven, CT. He was inducted into the IBHOF in 2012. He fought from 1929-48. He fought Holman Williams, 6-3-2, Charley Burley, 0-1-1, Eddie Booker, 1-0, Jack Chase, 1-0, Aaron Wade, 0-1, Archie Moore, 0-1, and Bert Lytell, 0-2.

    Southpaw Bert “Chocolate Kid” Lytell, 71-23-7 (24), was out of Oakland, CA. Fought from 1944-51. He fought Holman Williams, 1-1-1, Aaron Wade, 0-1, Cocoa Kid, 3-0, Charley Burley 1-1, and Archie Moore, 0-2.

    Lloyd Marshall, 70-25-4 (36), was out of Cleveland, OH. Fought from 1936-51. He fought Eddie Booker, 0-1, Charley Burley, 1-0, Holman Williams 1-2, Jack Chase, 0-0-1, Archie Moore, 0-2, Ezzard Charles, 1-2, Jake LaMotta, 1-0, and Joey Maxim, 1-0. He was inducted into the IBHOF in 2010.

    Aaron “Tigre” Wade, 61-16-6 (31), was out of San Francisco, CA. He fought from 1935-50. He fought Charley Burley, 0-3, Jack Chase, 0-2-1, Archie Moore, 1-0, Cocoa Kid, 1-0, Bert Lytell, 1-0, and Holman Williams, 0-1.

    Holman Williams, 146-31-11 (36), was out of Detroit, MI. He fought from 1932-48. He fought Cocoa Kid, 4-6-1, Eddie Booker, 1-1-1, Lloyd Marshall, 2-1, Jack Chase, 4-0, Aaron Wade, 2-1, Bert Lytell, 1-1-1, and Archie Moore, 1-1.



    Well, that is a lot of talent. Sugar Ray did fight black Englishmen Randy Turpin. He was not part of the murders row group. He beat Robinson once and was in the lead losing the other time but lost on TKO. He did cut Robinson in both fights. Thoughts on this topic? What if Turpin was in the murder's row group? How would he do?


    Ray fought Tiger Wade in1952, knocking him out in 3 rds.
    Of The MURDERERS Row.Using the Rings end of year ratings , the only ones ranked when Robinson was were;

    Welter
    1941
    Robinson no1
    Burley no5
    Williams no 6
    Cocoa Kid no 7
    That year Robinson fought and beat the number 2 contender Zivic


    1942
    Robinson no1

    Cocoa Kid no 4
    Cocoa Kid began campaigning as a middleweight in1942 As did Burley.

    That year Robinson fought and beat the number 2 contender Angott ,and the number 3 contender Zivic

    Middle ;
    1952 Artie Towne no 5

    ​​​​​​​That year Robinson fought and beat Olson no 3, Graziano no 10.

    1955 Artie Towne no 10.
    That year Robinson fought and lost to Jones,and fought and beat Castellani no 5 ,and Olson no1.

    ​​​​​​​ None of the Murderers Row were ranked when Turpin was.

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    • #3
      The Murders row is a group of excellent fighters for Welter to Middle. They were under ranked. Several of these men fought Archie Moore! But Sugar Ray never did.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
        The Murders row is a group of excellent fighters for Welter to Middle. They were under ranked. Several of these men fought Archie Moore! But Sugar Ray never did.
        I know about the MURDERERS ROW I have Springs Toledo's book on them and the one by Harry Otty Charley Burley And The Black Murderers Row, both are recommended.
        Robinson had dinner with Moore when Archie was the Lhvy Champ the purpose of the get together was to discuss a possible fight.
        Moore said they couldn't reach agreement because Robinson wanted the Lions share of the purse.

        My point which has escaped you ,is that there was only a very small window in1941 for Ray to fight Burley and Cocoa Kid when they were all ranked at147lbs.
        Burley was not a draw, his style turned off crowds.he may have beaten Robinson,Ray himself said of Burley,
        "I have to admit I have my doubts I could have licked him in my prime years".
        Burley said,I don't blame him, in his place I would probably have done the same.

        What it comes down to is very big risk and a very small reward.
        As Joe Calzaghe replied when he was asked why he hadn't fought Jones and Hopkins earlier,"boxing is a business."
        Slugfester Slugfester likes this.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Ivich View Post
          I know about the MURDERERS ROW I have Springs Toledo's book on them and the one by Harry Otty Charley Burley And The Black Murderers Row, both are recommended.
          Robinson had dinner with Moore when Archie was the Lhvy Champ the purpose of the get together was to discuss a possible fight.
          Moore said they couldn't reach agreement because Robinson wanted the Lions share of the purse.

          My point which has escaped you ,is that there was only a very small window in1941 for Ray to fight Burley and Cocoa Kid when they were all ranked at147lbs.
          Burley was not a draw, his style turned off crowds.he may have beaten Robinson,Ray himself said of Burley,
          "I have to admit I have my doubts I could have licked him in my prime years".
          Burley said,I don't blame him, in his place I would probably have done the same.

          What it comes down to is very big risk and a very small reward.
          As Joe Calzaghe replied when he was asked why he hadn't fought Jones and Hopkins earlier,"boxing is a business."
          Good you know something about Murderers row. Let keep this thread clean.

          In addition to Moore, Robinson did not fight any of them. But he did fight Turpin and lost, had to come back to win in the other match . Why does it feel on paper that Robinson was gun shy of fighting the USA black talent?

          Enough of there wasn't enough of a draw nonsense. Moore vs. Robinson would have fulled the house with spectators. I wish I could see it. How much was Ray making 1n 1941 per fight?

          Comment


          • #6
            He avoided them. Legend has it he sat ringside at one of Charley Burley’s fights and decided then that he would never fight him. He very well could have fought Burley, Williams, Chase and others as they fluctuated in weight. La Motta fought Williams and Marshall. One can’t accuse Graziano or any other middleweight of ducking them without including Robinson in that conversation.
            Slugfester Slugfester Dr. Z Dr. Z like this.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Ivich View Post
              I know about the MURDERERS ROW I have Springs Toledo's book on them and the one by Harry Otty Charley Burley And The Black Murderers Row, both are recommended.
              Robinson had dinner with Moore when Archie was the Lhvy Champ the purpose of the get together was to discuss a possible fight.
              Moore said they couldn't reach agreement because Robinson wanted the Lions share of the purse.

              My point which has escaped you ,is that there was only a very small window in1941 for Ray to fight Burley and Cocoa Kid when they were all ranked at147lbs.
              Burley was not a draw, his style turned off crowds.he may have beaten Robinson,Ray himself said of Burley,
              "I have to admit I have my doubts I could have licked him in my prime years".
              Burley said,I don't blame him, in his place I would probably have done the same.

              What it comes down to is very big risk and a very small reward.
              As Joe Calzaghe replied when he was asked why he hadn't fought Jones and Hopkins earlier,"boxing is a business."
              - - And Poppy paid a 4 mil contract judgement to Dibella for skipping the Joe fight Dibella had lined up.

              Don't matter if Ray skipped the fighters he's accused off. He was box office and only wanted box office fights, and Burley couldn't draw flies in his hometown or out of it. Same deal with the rest. They was fighting each other for peanuts.

              Comment


              • #8
                I read about Moore and Robby having dinner to discuss a bout circa 50 years ago. Glad to finally have that verified. Memory plays tricks.

                Yeah, he avoided him: part logistics, part finance, part caution.

                Logistics: As a middleweight Robinson was perpetually tied up in rematches with guys he beat for the title or who had beaten him for it.

                Finance: Burley was a mediocre e draw. A fight between he and Holman Williams was stopped by the referee for lack of action, as he sent them to the showers.

                Caution: Burley too good to risk it all against, for minimum moolah.

                Burley was the best middleweight or welterweight Robinson never fought. Probably at least the 2nd best middleweight in the world in Robinson's era. In a just world of course Burley gets his shot, and perhaps wins. He was a spoiler who could make it ugly.



                Ivich Ivich likes this.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Slugfester View Post
                  I read about Moore and Robby having dinner to discuss a bout circa 50 years ago. Glad to finally have that verified. Memory plays tricks.

                  Yeah, he avoided him: part logistics, part finance, part caution.

                  Logistics: As a middleweight Robinson was perpetually tied up in rematches with guys he beat for the title or who had beaten him for it.

                  Finance: Burley was a mediocre e draw. A fight between he and Holman Williams was stopped by the referee for lack of action, as he sent them to the showers.

                  Caution: Burley too good to risk it all against, for minimum moolah.

                  Burley was the best middleweight or welterweight Robinson never fought. Probably at least the 2nd best middleweight in the world in Robinson's era. In a just world of course Burley gets his shot, and perhaps wins. He was a spoiler who could make it ugly.


                  I think Robinson was smart enough to realize that giving away weight with.a master boxer like Burley would be a rough nite. Burley would never have knocked Robinson out but if.the.$ wasn't gonna be worth the trouble.

                  LaMotta fought several of those good black boxers that others avoided. He did fight Williams, Edgar, Satterfield. LaMotta had mo fear but he never fought Burley.

                  Ivich Ivich likes this.

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                  • #10
                    I think you guys over rate Burley.

                    I think it popular today to 'look in the know' by calling him masterful but I don't see it in his resume.

                    He has a trilogy with Zivic (2-1) and several bouts with Holman Williams, by whom, when it counted the most (Buffalo, summer 1945), got schooled and driven into obscurity.

                    Had a victory over a very young Old Mongoose, but couldn't get by Charles, Bivins, or even Georgie Abrams.

                    His biggest payday was a victory over Oakland Billy Smith and it was Smith who packed the stadium.

                    They (Zivic's promoter) even tried building a gate by having a 'homecoming fight' with Zivic in Pittsburgh.

                    The promotion was so dead on arrival that Zivic's manager had to buy up Burley's contract to keep him viable for the fight, and when the fight tanked at the gate, he sold him off.

                    Burley screwed himself over by never coming east to New York and throwing himself into the mix with the big boys. He never stepped up.

                    You can claim he was ducked but how does a fighter duck someone who is not around to fight?

                    He fought twice in New York, once at St. Nick's Arena (1942) and a second time in Buffalo, N.Y. and that's all folks. 90 plus fights and one New York City appearance.

                    No one had to duck him, he was never around the top guys to fight. He built his career in Pittsburgh, but when it came time to step up he chose Minnesota (why, I have no clue) and then later California. He chose the westcoast and it cost him.

                    Holman Williams who was also a westcoast fighter came to New York on several occasions and took on some big names. So it could be done, the fights were there, Burley wasn't.

                    If people were willing to fight Holman Williams, there was no reason to duck Burley, Williams was a touch better (albeit, also bigger).

                    I don't think the guy was ducked, just ignored.

                    Lots of praise, even by his contemporaries, for not really doing very much.

                    TITLE SHOTS: He was never ducked for a title shot. That is obvious by studying the rankings.

                    Even though Fleischer always ranked him high, he was never the next guy in line for a title shot.

                    In The Ring's Rankings, he was always a bride's maid, stuck behind SRR or Holman Williams and several others.

                    No doubt he got cheated out of his best years, with the titles on hold during WWII, but even then he was active and still avoided New York.

                    Ivich Ivich likes this.

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