Did Sugar Ray Robinson avoid the black murder's row?

[Ivich]

He avoided him! Plain and simple. Just like he avoided Moore and Burley. Facts need not apply to Ivich.

Cocoa Kid was 35 years old and had been retired for a year,having lost his last fight to a nobody.
He had been diagnosed with Pugilistica Dementia during his war service in the Navy.
Your suggestion that Robinson feared facing the Murderers Row is not born out by facts,because he many times fought men rated above them.None of them were ranked in the middleweight division when Robinson was middleweight champ so he could hardly be accused of ducking them!

When Robinson was the number 1 ranked welter weight he took on and beat the number 2 and number 3 ranked contenders both were ranked above Burley, and the number 3 Wilson beat Coca Kid Burley himself stated there was no money ina fight between himself and Robinson.
To say Robinson was afraid of other fighters is ridiculous.This is a man who in his 2 nd year as a pro while still a skinny welterweight took on a top ranked middleweight giving him lumps of weight and beat him, not once but multiple times!

After1942 No Murderers Row were ranked in the welterweight division.
In 1941Robinson entered the ratings at no1
1941
1.Robinson
2.Wilson
3 Zivic
5 Burley

1942
1.Robinson
2.Armstrong
3.Wilson
4. Cocoa Kid
Robinson fought and beat
Wilson
Zivic
Armstrong

All ranked above Burley and Cocoa Kid so how,[ especially as Robinson , was not even champion until1946 ,]does that constitute a duck?



After 1950 No Murderers Row were ranked in the middleweight division.
Robinson won the middleweight title in 1951.

Do not mention FACTS! I have been providing them!
Whereas YOU during all of this you have not produced a single fact to support your argument,nor one statistic to refute mine.

[Ivich]

Why don't you accept the facts? They are not an opinion! SRR did not fight the murders row, a talented group of fighters raging from welter to middle or Archie Moore. When he did fight talented black man in Turpin he was 1-1, and cut both times. And he would fight a middle when he was a welter. See Jake LaMotta.

All you do is post garbage that he would fight easier marks and list the rankings of the times which are not exactly fair to the black man. In hindsight we see they were HOF fighters in may cases.

Here are some facts.Robinson faced and beat the following ranked Black fighters.
Two of whom Basora and Wade, were members of Murderers Row.
Basora beat
Lamotta,Zivic and Holman Williams 3 times!

Wade beat
Hogue,Lytell, Moore,Cocoa Kid,and Oakland Billy Smith.

Wilson beat
Bell,Lello,Garcia,Cocoa Kid.Azteca,Zivic,,and Arizmendi.


Bell
Basora
Wilson
Costner
Wade
Jones
Turpin
Armstrong
Barnes
Mims
Hudson
Gavilan
What you know about the Row can be written on a pinhead,
You can't even spell it properly!
Want to know why Robinson never fought Burley?

Here's why!

On other threads on this website and the Boxing 24 one, I have noted that Burley simply wasn't much of a gate attraction. It appears that Burley never drew a gate more than $15,000. or $16,000. while fighting in a "stand-alone" main event. While taking a look at Burley's record, I found it astounding that he didn't fight in such a large number of major American boxing venues. Moreover, he fought in New York City only once during his career with that bout taking place at St. Nicholas Arena. As a result, I have my doubts that any promoter or backer made a serious offer of $20,000. or $25,000. to Sugar Ray Robinson or Jake LaMotta to fight Burley.

- Chuck Johnston

December 31st 1947 {Ottawa Citizen} Burley interview. "The biggest purse I shared was $2,900 and I fought for as little as $20. It wasn't my managers fault, the other fighters just didn't want me or I had to fight on their terms".

1941 was the only year Robinson and Burley were both ranked in the same division[welterweight].
Burley retired in1950.Having had ten managers.

Moore and Robinson were never both ranked in the same year ,in the same weight class.

[DooGee#33]

He certainly was!

Ok. Just trying to make sense of this.
Costner was black Gavilan was black. Tommy Bell was black
So if Robinson hadn't faced those guys they might be on the Murder's Row.

[Slugfester]

I didn't know Basora was black. Apparently a helluva fighter though to draw with Robinson in his prime. I think next time he was KO'd.

[Ivich]

Ok. Just trying to make sense of this.
Costner was black Gavilan was black. Tommy Bell was black
So if Robinson hadn't faced those guys they might be on the Murder's Row.

Along with Barnes ,Mims ,Wilson ,Armstrong, and Hudson.
IN 1943 Lamotta a non champ and Robinson also a non champ , fought for the 3rd time . Ray was conceding16 lbs to Jake , Jake had won their 2nd meeting.

Why did Ray do it ? Because each took home a $15,000 purse!

Charley Burley stated he never got more than a $3000 purse his whole career which didn't end until1950!
That's why Robinson wasn't interested in giving weight to Burley,as Burley said, there was no money in us fighting each other.

Burley was a great fighter but a poor box office draw.
Robinson did not scale 140lbs until August1941. Moore was the number 4 middleweight then .

[Dr. Z]

Along with Barnes ,Mims ,Wilson ,Armstrong, and Hudson.
IN 1943 Lamotta a non champ and Robinson also a non champ , fought for the 3rd time . Ray was conceding16 lbs to Jake , Jake had won their 2nd meeting.

Why did Ray do it ? Because each took home a $15,000 purse!

Charley Burley stated he never got more than a $3000 purse his whole career which didn't end until1950!
That's why Robinson wasn't interested in giving weight to Burley,as Burley said, there was no money in us fighting each other.

Burley was a great fighter but a poor box office draw.
Robinson did not scale 140lbs until August1941. Moore was the number 4 middleweight then .

You dolt, a potential Robinson vs. Burley match would draw a lot more than $15,000. Got it?! The fact that SRR would fight Jake LaMotta a fighter who moved down from light heavyweight to middle weight at 145 pounds completely torpedoes your ascertation about him not fighting middleweights as a welter.

As stated Robinson ducked the black Murders row and Archie Moore. There are like 9 ducks here. You can find lesser opponent than them for sure that he did fight. That's what you are good for. I'm sure you can find they all lost match too. Take a look at Robinsons opponents too ...you will find many of them lost to Archie Moore and the murder's row.

[Dr. Z]

I didn't know Basora was black. Apparently a helluva fighter though to draw with Robinson in his prime. I think next time he was KO'd.

You wonder if a fighter like Basora 78-20-6 could draw with Robison what does that mean?

• There was a sellout crowd of 14,653 at Convention Hall. So much for 2 black's could not draw. We are even taking about a potential Archie Moore or Black murder's row match. The fans are watching SSR vs. a non America Puerto Rico fighter. Got that Ivich?

According to the AP, Robinson won four of the first five rounds but wilted as Basora rallied to take rounds six through nine. Basora was ahead on the AP scores going into the tenth and final round.


Is this match on film? If it is, I have never seen it.

[Ivich]

You dolt, a potential Robinson vs. Burley match would draw a lot more than $15,000. Got it?! The fact that SRR would fight Jake LaMotta a fighter who moved down from light heavyweight to middle weight at 145 pounds completely torpedoes your ascertation about him not fighting middleweights as a welter.

As stated Robinson ducked the black Murders row and Archie Moore. There are like 9 duck here. You can find lesser opponent than them for sure that he did fight. That's what you are good for.

Burley did not think so."I can't say I blame him. There wasn't no money in us fighting each other. All we would have done is knock each other off."Charley Burley

I can't understand for the life of me why you keep on saying I SAID Robinson would not fight middle weights when he was a welter weight?

This was my last post! Made this morning!
"IN 1943 Lamotta a non champ and Robinson also a non champ , fought for the 3rd time . Ray was conceding16 lbs to Jake , Jake had won their 2nd meeting.

Why did Ray do it ? Because each took home a $15,000 purse!" It categorically states Ray was prepared to fight middleweights when he was sure of a good purse ! Just how ****ing ****** are you!

Robinson did not turn pro unil1940
Robinson did not enter the ratings as a welter until 1941
Robinson did not win the Welter title until December 1946.
.Archie Moore had begun fighting Lhvys in1944 having dropped out of the middleweight ratings in1942.
I keep asking you when Robinson would have gotten a big purse to fight Moore and you haven't come up with a single thing! Just a truncated round by round of a couple of Ray's fights with Lamotta, the relevance of which totally escapes me!
.After Feb 1941Moore was unavailable to fight anyone he had developed ulcers after the Eddie Booker fight and was hospitalized for 38days where he lost a ton of weight ! Moore did not fight again until a year later,on 28th Jan 1942.

This leaves a window for them to fight of Feb 1942 until the end of 1944 during which time Moore was not ranked in any weight division and therefore they would not have drawn a big gate!
Now read all this and inwardly absorb and digest it!

You say Robinson ducked 9 of the Murderers Row?
Lets look at that.
1950's Middleweight end of year top ten .
One of the Row ranked in the whole decade Artie Towne at no 10 in1955.

50-60's Middleweight end of year ratings NO Murderers Row ranked.

From 1940 Marshall was top ten ranked at Light heavy.

From 1942 Bolden was top ten ranked at Light heavy..

From1943 Booker was top ten ranked at Light heavy.

From1946 Moore and Chase were top ten ranked at Light heavy
This was the year Robinson won the Welterweight title.

Thats 4, Bolden,Booker,Marshall, and Chase out of the equation.Unless you think Robinson should have jumped 2 divisions to take on ranked light heavies after waiting 5 years for his title short at Welter?

This leaves, according to you 5 other members of the Row.
Burley who after 1942 was a middleweight and could not draw flies to dog ****.
Burley retired in1950 the year before Robinosn won the middleweight title

Wade whom Robinson ko'd in3 rds

Cocoa Kid who dropped permanently out of the ratings in1942 and retired in1948 The Kid lost toJackie Wilson whom Robinson stopped in7 rds .
Wade whom Robinson kod in3 rds, and Jannazzo, whom Robinson took a decision off

Bert Lytell who began fighting lhvys in 47 and was last ranked anywhere in1948 at middleweight ,he retired in1951.

Lytell lost to Lamotta in1945 , Robinson beat Lamotta 5 times,including in1945 !

The Murderers Ros fought each other 62 times!
Does your Pea Brain never wonder why so often?
. A . They could not get contenders and champions into the ring with them!


Why? because for the most part they did not draw good gates.= High risk low reward!
Freddie Cochrane Welterweight Champ 1941 -1945 Never fought one of the Row.

Henry Armstrong Welterweight Champ `1937-1940
In 19 defences of the tile Armstrong never fought one of the Row,and in180 fights ,he never got in the ring with one of them!

Tony Zale Middleweight Champ1940-1947[title frozen during the War] and 1948-1948.
87 fights only fought one of the Row Nate Bolden[ 4 times in non title fights,] losing 2 of them.

Rocky Graziano Middleweight Champ 1946-1947


Marcel Cerdan Middleweight Champ 1948-1949

114 fights.
Fought 1 of the Row,Holman Williams . All these men had members of the Murderers Row ranked in their weight class whilst they were champion.


Freddie Mills Light heavyweight Champ 1948 -1950
Fought 1 of the Row,Lloyd Marshall who gave him10lbs knocked him down 4 times and stopped him in 5 rds.
Who got the title shot against Lesnevich? Mills not Marshall.

Who do you single out and accuse of being scared of the Row? Not any of these , but Robinson who fought 2 of the Row and beat them by ko, and beat others who beat them . Robinson who was not champion when any of the Row were ranked.
YOU'RE RIDICULOUS!

[Ivich]

You wonder if a fighter like Basora 78-20-6 could draw with Robison what does that mean?

• There was a sellout crowd of 14,653 at Convention Hall. So much for 2 black's could not draw. We are even taking about a potential Archie Moore or Black murder's row match. The fans are watching SSR vs. a non America Puerto Rico fighter. Got that Ivich?

According to the AP, Robinson won four of the first five rounds but wilted as Basora rallied to take rounds six through nine. Basora was ahead on the AP scores going into the tenth and final round.


Is this match on film? If it is, I have never seen it.

And in the rematch Robinson knocked Basora down 4 times,leaving him unconscious on the canvas .The time? 55 seconds of the 1 st round!

The score cards from their 1 st fight.

• Referee Charlie Daggert scored the fight even, 4-4-2. Judge Harry Lasky gave the fight to Basora 5-4-1, and judge Frank Knaresborough had it for Robinson 6-4. The Associated Press called the fight even, 5-5.
• According to the AP, Robinson won four of the first five rounds but wilted as Basora rallied to take rounds six through nine. Basora was ahead on the AP scored going into the tenth, but Robinson gained the draw by making Basora retreat in the last round with a series of lefts and rights. [1]

NB Robinson was a Welter fighting a Middle.
Basora was a decent draw because unlike Williams and Burley ,he was an aggressive fighter , and Robinson fought him twice because he could make decent paydays with him!

[Dr. Z]

And in the rematch Robinson knocked Basora down 4 times,leaving him unconscious on the canvas .The time? 55 seconds of the 1 st round!

The score cards from their 1 st fight.

• Referee Charlie Daggert scored the fight even, 4-4-2. Judge Harry Lasky gave the fight to Basora 5-4-1, and judge Frank Knaresborough had it for Robinson 6-4. The Associated Press called the fight even, 5-5.
• According to the AP, Robinson won four of the first five rounds but wilted as Basora rallied to take rounds six through nine. Basora was ahead on the AP scored going into the tenth, but Robinson gained the draw by making Basora retreat in the last round with a series of lefts and rights. [1]

NB Robinson was a Welter fighting a Middle.
Basora was a decent draw because unlike Williams and Burley ,he was an aggressive fighter , and Robinson fought him twice because he could make decent paydays with him!

UM, the first fight was close! No judge from PR. Only USA judges. Hmmm.... I wonder if they were fair. As I said I've never seen the film.

Robinsons waited five more years when Basora was on the decline to fight him again. Any fight Robinson was in would draw. It is laughable that you think he would not draw vs Burley and Moore .. along with the rest of the murders row would not.