Did Sugar Ray Robinson avoid the black murder's row?

[Ivich]

So says you! You are wrong again.


What did Robison make for each title defense, than ask yourself would he have made more vs. Archie Moore ( middle weight champion ) and the black murders row. Yes, he would have made more in many matches. Don't have access to that? Then why talk about it? I showed you Robinson was willing to fight Jake LaMotta a middle when he was a welter.

Just like Joe Louis made more $ vs. Joe Walcott. Check the purses you dolt. Sugar Ray Robinson AVOIDED the black talent of the times.

No reply form you, of course.

Here's my reply.
Ray's total purses
For Graziano $82,200, 40

For Lamotta [ Champ] Ray $22,500

For Turpin 1 $84,000

For Turpin 2 $230,000

For Olson 2 Unknown. Ray gave his purse to the Damon Runyon Cancer Fund

For Olson 3 Ray $45,000

Fullmer 1 Ray$139,500

For Fullmer2 Ray $67,394

For Basilio1 Ray$453,666

For Fullmer 4 Ray $78.000

For Basilio2 Ray $345,000


I have the gate for each and the attendance numbers too
Some of Moore's total purses in title fights
For Johnson 5 Moore $34.024

For Durelle 1 No individual purses but the total gross gate was $89.940 So somewhat less then that

For Durelle 2 no individual purses but the gross gate was$140,519 Somewhat less than that

For Olson Lhvy v Middle Champ.Moore $90,000

For Patterson World Heavweight title fight Moore$130 ,000

For Marciano World Heavyweight title fight Moore$ 241.187

This was Moore's biggest total purse and the only one to reach over $200,000

I have the attendance figures and the gross gates too.

If you have any additional total purses for Moore post them .I'm sure we would all like to see them!

Meanwhile here is something for you to watch and enjoy over the week end!

Jack Johnson vs Jim Jeffries Highlights Colourised [Full HD] - YouTube

[Dr. Z]

@ Tony " Ivich " Mcvey. That's it? Ray fought a lot of times ( why not list all of his purses for title fights?) , and you're wrong to assume Ray would make at least $20,000 for the murders row or fight with the middleweight champion Archie Moore. And he would make more for a re-match if the first fight was close or he lost.

[Ivich]

@ Tony " Ivich " Mcvey. That's it? Ray fought a lot of times ( why not list all of his purses for title fights?) , and you're wrong to assume Ray would make at least $20,000 for the murders row or fight with the middleweight champion Archie Moore. And he would make more for a re-match if the first fight was close or he lost.

Ive proved Robinson was making more money for purses than Moore.even for some non title fights!

Moore did not become any sort of a draw until he began his campaign to fight Marciano,taking out wanted ads for Marciano and having photos printed in magazines with himself dressed as a Sheriff which began in early 1955 before his title fight with middle Champ Olson for which he received his biggest purse for defending his Lhvy title.

In a 28 year career involving 220 fights Moore only appeared in NY 6 times!
Once in the Polo Grounds v Olson
Once in Yankee Stadium v Marciano
Once in St Nicks vBivins
Three times in MSG v Whitehurst, Rinaldi & Wrestler Dibiase
The purses I posted prove that Moore only drew a decent gate when his opponent was a draw.
For defending against Johnson Moore got $34,024

Moore and Bivins drew 1,335 through the turnstiles the gross gate was $2,425!

[Dr. Z]

Ive proved Robinson was making more money for purses than Moore.even for some non title fights! Moore did not become any sort of a draw until he began his campaign to fight Marciano,taking out wanted ads for Marciano and having photos printed in magazines with himself dressed as a Sheriff which began in early 1955 before his title fight with middle Champ Olson for which he received his biggest purse for defending his Lhvy title.
Ina 28year career involving 220 fights Moore only appeared in NY 6 times!
Once in the Polo Grounds v Olson
Once in Yankee Stadium v Marciano
Once in St Nicks v
Three times in MSG v Whitehurst, Rinaldi & Wrestler Dibiase
The purses I posted prove that Moore only drew a decent gate when his opponent was a draw for defending against Johnson in

Moore vs. Robinson would draw more people than 90% of his Robinson fights. You did not prove $#^t They were both champions at one time you know. As such boxing fans would have filled the arena.

Robinson did not want it! That's why it did not happen. He could have fought Moore at middle weight , same as when a was a welter and moved up to fight LaMoatta at middle weight in 1942. By the way Jake LaMotta was a light heavy early on. So much for your theory that Robinson would not fight bigger men.

LaMotta fought Sugar Ray Robinson in Robinson's middleweight debut at Madison Square Garden, New York City, October 2, 1942. LaMotta knocked Robinson down in the first round of the fight. Robinson got up and took control over much of the fight, winning via a unanimous 10-round decision.

A 10-round rematch took place February 5, 1943, at Olympia Stadium in Detroit, Michigan. The eighth round was historic. LaMotta landed a right to Robinson's head and a left to his body, sending him through the ropes. Robinson was saved by the bell at the count of nine. LaMotta, who was already leading on the scorecards before knocking Robinson out of the ring, pummeled and outpointed him for the rest of the fight. Robinson had trouble keeping LaMotta at bay. LaMotta won via unanimous decision, giving Robinson the first defeat of his career.

[Ivich]

Moore vs. Robinson would draw more people than 90% of his Robinson fights. You did not prove $#^t They were both champions at one time you know. As such boxing fans would have filled the arena.

Robinson did not want it! That's why it did not happen. He could have fought Moore at middle weight , same as when a was a welter and moved up to fight LaMoatta at middle weight in 1942. By the way Jake LaMotta was a light heavy early on. So much for your theory that Robinson would not fight bigger men.

LaMotta fought Sugar Ray Robinson in Robinson's middleweight debut at Madison Square Garden, New York City, October 2, 1942. LaMotta knocked Robinson down in the first round of the fight. Robinson got up and took control over much of the fight, winning via a unanimous 10-round decision.

A 10-round rematch took place February 5, 1943, at Olympia Stadium in Detroit, Michigan. The eighth round was historic. LaMotta landed a right to Robinson's head and a left to his body, sending him through the ropes. Robinson was saved by the bell at the count of nine. LaMotta, who was already leading on the scorecards before knocking Robinson out of the ring, pummeled and outpointed him for the rest of the fight. Robinson had trouble keeping LaMotta at bay. LaMotta won via unanimous decision, giving Robinson the first defeat of his career.

Do you think you have made any salient points here?
When Robinson was a welter weight in1946 Moore was a ranked Lhvy!


You really are as thick as a brick!

[Willie Pep 229]

How come Boxrec doesn't mention La Motta knocking down SRR in any fight? You would think it worth a mention.

I remember the film Raging Bull having La Motta downing SRR but losing the fight.

Always wondered what the whole truth was. Is the information above, claiming two separate KDs, from a sound source?

[Dr. Z]

How come Boxrec doesn't mention La Motta knocking down SRR in any fight? You would think it worth a mention.

I remember the film Raging Bull having La Motta downing SRR but losing the fight.

Always wondered what the whole truth was. Is the information above, claiming two separate KDs, from a sound source?

I'm not on Box Rec, so its a trad unfair of me to take shots at them, but their data base of record is very incomplete as should not be taken as a given. I prefer Wiki with has historians and serious fight fans who own films. Their editing ability is superior .

It seems like SRR Robinson was down in quite a few fights. And LaMotta was no puncher!

Yes, they happened. I tell the board that lots of stuff happened but there are some who doubt it and let box rec due there research for them. No names mentioned!

[Willie Pep 229]

I'm not on Box Rec, so its a trad unfair of me to take shots at them, but their data base of record is very incomplete as should not be taken as a given. I prefer Wiki with has historians and serious fight fans who own films. Their editing ability is superior .

It seems like SRR Robinson was down in quite a few fights. And LaMotta was no puncher!

Yes, they happened. I tell the board that lots of stuff happened but there are some who doubt it and let box rec due there research for them. No names mentioned!

OK -- Wikipedia states that LA Motta KD SRR in the eight round of their second fight and then won a decision. That jives with the narative posted above.

But Wikipedia does not mention a first round KD in their first fight. The narative doesn't support the above source. Where is that one from?

Now, the film Raging Bull shows us a fight where La Motta KDs SRR then loses the fight by decision. But the timing insists that it is not their first fight. Too many versions out there.

So, I am still hazy.

P.S. Raging Bull --> One space-time error I (think) noticed, is that Jake and brother Joey are at odds during La Motta's famous comeback against the Frenchman Laurent Dauthuille. After the fight Jake calls his little brother on the phone and listens to Joey curse at him and call him names.

The timing of this estrangement, which did at some point occur, is contradicted by a famous photo of La Motta with hands raised after the comeback win, with brother Joey in the ring celebrating with him.

So Scorsese was playing loose with the time-space reality in the fight montages, so I don't put much stock in the KD story the film tells.

Still can't seem to get the SRR KD stories to come together into a sensible scenario.

[Ivich]

Moore vs. Robinson would draw more people than 90% of his Robinson fights. You did not prove $#^t They were both champions at one time you know. As such boxing fans would have filled the arena.

Robinson did not want it! That's why it did not happen. He could have fought Moore at middle weight , same as when a was a welter and moved up to fight LaMoatta at middle weight in 1942. By the way Jake LaMotta was a light heavy early on. So much for your theory that Robinson would not fight bigger men.

LaMotta fought Sugar Ray Robinson in Robinson's middleweight debut at Madison Square Garden, New York City, October 2, 1942. LaMotta knocked Robinson down in the first round of the fight. Robinson got up and took control over much of the fight, winning via a unanimous 10-round decision.

A 10-round rematch took place February 5, 1943, at Olympia Stadium in Detroit, Michigan. The eighth round was historic. LaMotta landed a right to Robinson's head and a left to his body, sending him through the ropes. Robinson was saved by the bell at the count of nine. LaMotta, who was already leading on the scorecards before knocking Robinson out of the ring, pummeled and outpointed him for the rest of the fight. Robinson had trouble keeping LaMotta at bay. LaMotta won via unanimous decision, giving Robinson the first defeat of his career.

Your learning difficulties and limited reading skill make it almost impossible to explain things to you and carry on a coherent narrative.
I have never said Robinson would not fight bigger men I said he would do so when it was financially viable for him to do it
The proposition fell apart because Ray wanted to dictate financial terms ,this was by the way in 1959! Ray made the running for this proposed fight not Moore.
Moore's biggest purse for a defence of his title was $90,0000 against the middleweight champ Olson,when both he and Olson were prime and Moore had made himself into a celebrity by taking out adverts and wanted posters in his campaign to entice Marciano into giving him a title fight ,Marciano would be Moore's next fight after Olson, The purse for Olson was nearly 3 times what he got for defending against his number 1 challenger Johnson.for which he got $34,000.
Robinson was pulling purses of $230,000 v Turpin2 $139 v Fullmer1,for Basilio 1 he got $483,666!
I keep telling you that in the 40's.
1.Moore could not draw a big gate he was only ranked at middleweight for1940when Ray was in his rookie year and in 1942
2. Moore went to fight in Australia in1940 because he could not get fights in the US Moore had his 1st fight Down Under in March 1940 and did not return to the US until October 1940 ,so ,even had they been prepared as 2 unranked fighters to fight for a pittance they could not have done so in 1940!

3..Robinson did not turn pro unil1940
4,Robinson did not enter the ratings as a welter until 1941
5.Robinson did not win the Welter title until December 1946.
6.Archie Moore had begun fighting Lhvys in1944 having dropped out of the middleweight ratings in1942.
I keep asking you when Robinson would have gotten a big purse to fight Moore and you haven't come up with a single thing! Just a truncated round by round of a couple of Ray's fights with Lamotta, the relevance of which totally escapes me!
7.After Feb 1941Moore was unavailable to fight anyone he had developed ulcers after the Eddie Booker fight and was hospitalized for 38days where he lost a ton of weight ! Moore did not fight again until a year later,on 28th Jan 1942.

8.This leaves a window for them to fight of Feb 1942 until the end of 1944 during which time Moore was not ranked in any weight division and therefore they would not have drawn a big gate!
Now read all this and inwardly absorb and digest it!

[Ivich]

How come Boxrec doesn't mention La Motta knocking down SRR in any fight? You would think it worth a mention.

I remember the film Raging Bull having La Motta downing SRR but losing the fight.

Always wondered what the whole truth was. Is the information above, claiming two separate KDs, from a sound source?

• Robinson was knocked through the ropes in the eighth round. The International News Service (INS) reported: "A right to the body and a left to the head knocked Robinson through the ropes in the eighth round. Robinson lay sprawling outside the ring from a hard right to the body and a left to the head and the count was nine when the bell rang, saving the negro lad from a knockout."Box rec

I cannot vouch for the provenance of the below,its from a gaming link. Neither Robinsons biography or Lamotta's auto biography mention these additional KD's

108 views 16 Dec 2022 #boxingtraining #boxing
LaMotta fought Sugar Ray Robinson in Robinson's middleweight debut at Madison Square Garden, New York City, October 2, 1942. LaMotta knocked Robinson down in the first round of the fight. Robinson got up and took control over much of the fight, winning via a unanimous 10-round decision. A 10-round rematch took place February 5, 1943, at Olympia Stadium in Detroit, Michigan. The eighth round was historic. LaMotta landed a right to Robinson's head and a left to his body, sending him through the ropes. Robinson was saved by the bell at the count of nine. LaMotta, who was already leading on the scorecards before knocking Robinson out of the ring, pummeled and outpointed him for the rest of the fight. Robinson had trouble keeping LaMotta at bay. LaMotta won via unanimous decision, giving Robinson the first defeat of his career. The victory was short-lived, as the two met on February 26, 1943, in what was another 10-round fight, once again at Olympia Stadium in Robinson's former home of Detroit. Robinson was knocked down for a nine-count in Round 7. Robinson later stated, "He really hurt me with a left in the seventh round. I was a little dazed and decided to stay on the deck." Robinson won the close fight by unanimous decision, using a dazzling left jab and jarring uppercuts. LaMotta said the fight was given to Robinson because he would be inducted into the army the next day. A fourth fight, the duo's final 10 rounder, took place nearly two years after the third, on February 23, 1945, at Madison Square Garden, New York. Robinson won again by a unanimous decision.