Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Did Sugar Ray Robinson avoid the black murder's row?

Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #71
    Originally posted by Ivich View Post

    I dislike Robinson intensely I think he was a POS.
    I've asked you to go through these guys chronologically and tell me when Ray should have fought them,but you are doing what you usually do, snipe from the sidelines.
    Now ,once again .select your member or members of Murderers Row and state when Robinson should have fought him/them.
    Oh and by the way I didn't focus on the early 40's those three years were selected by Z
    .Now come on.
    BE A MAN MAKE YOUR CASE.I AM VERY HAPPY TO DEBATE WITH YOU.
    SO COME OUT FROM BEHIND THE CURTAIN AND TRY AND STAB ME IN THE FRONT FOR A CHANGE! lol
    Robinson was scheduled to fight Burley in '46. He doubled his asking price after agreeing to fight him. He did this at least once and possibly twice.

    Charlie was approached by promoter Jake Mintz on March 14, 1946 before Charley’s fight against an unheralded, but game John Dodson. The bout against Sugar Ray would be held on May 10th of that same year in Pittsburg at Forbes Field. In the meantime Charley faced Oakland Billy Smith in Billy’s back yard for a second time on April 24, 1946. Charley had handed Smith quite the beating in their first go around, however, Smith had an upset win over Lloyd Marshall by a su****ious knock out in the ninth round. Promoters in California felt a second meeting between Burley and Smith could fill some seats, and Charley viewed this fight with Smith as a way to campaign for his dream match against Sugar Ray Robinson. After Burley defeated Smith, Ray upped the original price of $25,000 to a $50,000 guarantee along with a percentage of the gate. Interestingly enough, in 1949, Ray fought for a small purse of $8,938.

    As Charley neared the end of his life he became much more vocal about the failed match against Sugar. Not too long before passing he was quoted as saying:

    “Ray ducked me. George Gainford (Robinson’s manager) admitted that much. But, I can’t say I blame him.​

    “Jake Mintz came to me one time and said I might be able to get a contract for three fights with Ray Robinson. But he told me that part of the deal would be that I’d have to go down in the first one. I questioned whether I’d get a rematch after the first fight. He didn’t give me a definite answer.”

    Charley claims this second meeting took place just before Sugar Ray’s bout with Ossie Harris on March 4, 1948. It seems Charley believed he had the skills to hand Robinson a loss.​

    According to Harry Otty, Ray and his team rarely took risks and even had a way of policing potential opponents. A man by the birth name of James Tufts, who fought under three other pseudonym’s, was a skilled fighter with power in both hands. He was an avoided fighter who acted as something of a gate keeper for Robinson, with prospective opponents having to face Tufts first to see what they were capable of. One such example of this would be Burt Lytell, who would drop a split decision to Tufts in 1950 thereby sacrificing a potential match up with Ray.

    With new management Burley’s team was able to raise $60,000, and offered it to every champion they could find. None, including Robinson himself, took the offer despite it being $10,000 more than Ray had previously asked for.

    Robinson, supposedly watching Burley ringside, told his manager, "I'm too pretty to fight Charley Burley." Robinson avoided Burley and Burley always believed that he was the better fighter and of course, we would never know if Burley was right.

    Comment


    • #72
      Originally posted by Ivich View Post

      I'm telling you that a past it Cocoa Kid had been retired for a year.so.Why on earth would Robinson avoid him unless it was a financial decision?

      Robinson signed to fight the number 6 Burton but when that fell thought he ducked out of a fight with the past, it unranked, retired for a year Kid who had lost his last fight to a journeyman?
      What a coward!
      How much do you think such a match would have drawn?
      I don’t know the answer as to why Robinson didn’t take that fight but what I do know as an objective fact is he was offered the fight and he turned it down and then they had a scheduled fight for the following month and he didn’t turn up to it.

      Comment


      • #73
        Originally posted by Ivich View Post
        My bad.
        You are wrong anyway
        Cocoa Kid retired in1948 which is what I meant to say,he had his last fight in August of that year.
        Oh and I have been looking it up I always do!

        "Cocoa Kid is used to denigrate Robinson and its said that Robinson ducked him while he was rated all this time. Not true. Robinson won his title in December 1946. A week after that Cocoa Kid lost an 8 rounder to 11-2 Eddie Oneill. Two weeks after that he drew with 15-3-3 Oneill Bell. He won 6 of his next 13 fights and ended his career 178-56-11. Yet we are supposed to believe Robinson ran out of a match out of fear with a guy who had been retired a year and lost his last fight which was an 8 rounder to an unknown with a 26-11 record." Steve Compton.


        "Just before Ring 1942 rankings were released Robinson defeated Izzy Jannazzo twice in successive fights. Janazzo has beaten Cocao Kid twice in the preceding two years and was 1-1-1 with Holman Williams. “SC

        "Ray ducked me. George Gainford (Ray's manager) admitted that much. But, I can't say I blame him. There wasn't no money in us fighting each other. All we would have done is knock each other off."

        "You know, to me the most remarkable thing about Ray's career is that he didn't even get a shot at the welterweight title til he was 26- or the middleweight title til' he was 30! You think he was the greatest? What do you think he'd a been if he'd gotten his chances when he deserved them? You wanna know the truth? If I coulda' got my shot, I wouldn't have risked it fighting someone like Ray."
        Charley Burley

        It's from the chapter "Robinson Ducks" in this book:​
        Oh so addition to the black murder row and Archie Moore no fights with Coco. Look like someone isn't fighting the best black fighters if the times, save Lloyd Marshal who he lost in the first fight and came back for behind the TKO him late in the 2nd. Sugar Ray Robinson was cut is both fights.


        https://theneutralcornerboxingdotcom...-golden-eight/

        I find it hilarious that you quote Compton. Are you at odds with him too?

        Comment


        • #74
          Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post

          Robinson was scheduled to fight Burley in '46. He doubled his asking price after agreeing to fight him. He did this at least once and possibly twice.

          Charlie was approached by promoter Jake Mintz on March 14, 1946 before Charley’s fight against an unheralded, but game John Dodson. The bout against Sugar Ray would be held on May 10th of that same year in Pittsburg at Forbes Field. In the meantime Charley faced Oakland Billy Smith in Billy’s back yard for a second time on April 24, 1946. Charley had handed Smith quite the beating in their first go around, however, Smith had an upset win over Lloyd Marshall by a su****ious knock out in the ninth round. Promoters in California felt a second meeting between Burley and Smith could fill some seats, and Charley viewed this fight with Smith as a way to campaign for his dream match against Sugar Ray Robinson. After Burley defeated Smith, Ray upped the original price of $25,000 to a $50,000 guarantee along with a percentage of the gate. Interestingly enough, in 1949, Ray fought for a small purse of $8,938.

          As Charley neared the end of his life he became much more vocal about the failed match against Sugar. Not too long before passing he was quoted as saying:

          “Ray ducked me. George Gainford (Robinson’s manager) admitted that much. But, I can’t say I blame him.​

          “Jake Mintz came to me one time and said I might be able to get a contract for three fights with Ray Robinson. But he told me that part of the deal would be that I’d have to go down in the first one. I questioned whether I’d get a rematch after the first fight. He didn’t give me a definite answer.”

          Charley claims this second meeting took place just before Sugar Ray’s bout with Ossie Harris on March 4, 1948. It seems Charley believed he had the skills to hand Robinson a loss.​

          According to Harry Otty, Ray and his team rarely took risks and even had a way of policing potential opponents. A man by the birth name of James Tufts, who fought under three other pseudonym’s, was a skilled fighter with power in both hands. He was an avoided fighter who acted as something of a gate keeper for Robinson, with prospective opponents having to face Tufts first to see what they were capable of. One such example of this would be Burt Lytell, who would drop a split decision to Tufts in 1950 thereby sacrificing a potential match up with Ray.

          With new management Burley’s team was able to raise $60,000, and offered it to every champion they could find. None, including Robinson himself, took the offer despite it being $10,000 more than Ray had previously asked for.

          Robinson, supposedly watching Burley ringside, told his manager, "I'm too pretty to fight Charley Burley." Robinson avoided Burley and Burley always believed that he was the better fighter and of course, we would never know if Burley was right.

          YOU LEFT OUT THE BIT WHERE BURLEY SAYS
          "there wasn't no money in us fighting each other"

          Im sure that was an honest mistake.lol !
          "Ray ducked me. George Gainford (Ray's manager) admitted that much. But, I can't say I blame him. There wasn't no money in us fighting each other. All we would have done is knock each other off."
          Charley Burley.
          In 1946 Ray was angling for a welterweight title shot,which he got and won on the 20th December of that year
          .That year and a couple before it Burley was number 2 ranked at middleweight.

          In1977 Marvin Hagler became the number 1 Middleweight contender do you also tear him down for not fighting the number 1 light heavyweight contender Victor Galindez? You're being ridiculous!

          Last edited by Ivich; 10-19-2023, 02:03 PM.
          travestyny travestyny likes this.

          Comment


          • #75
            Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post

            Oh so addition to the black murder row and Archie Moore no fights with Coco. Look like someone isn't fighting the best black fighters if the times, save Lloyd Marshal who he lost in the first fight and came back for behind the TKO him late in the 2nd. Sugar Ray Robinson was cut is both fights.


            https://theneutralcornerboxingdotcom...-golden-eight/

            I find it hilarious that you quote Compton. Are you at odds with him too?
            Cocoa Kid was part of the Black Murderers Row.
            Dr. Z Dr. Z likes this.

            Comment


            • #76
              Originally posted by Ivich View Post
              YOU LEFT OUT THE BIT WHERE BURLEY SAYS
              "there wasn't no money in us fighting each other"

              Im sure that was an honest mistake.lol !
              "Ray ducked me. George Gainford (Ray's manager) admitted that much. But, I can't say I blame him. There wasn't no money in us fighting each other. All we would have done is knock each other off."
              Charley Burley.
              In 1946 Ray was angling for a welterweight title shot,which he got and won on the 20th December of that year
              .That year and a couple before it Burley was number 2 ranked at middleweight.

              In1977 Marvin Hagler became the number 1 Middleweight contender do you also tear him down for not fighting the number 1 light heavyweight contender Victor Galindez? You're being ridiculous!
              So rather than admit you are wrong, you want to search for a quote that doesn't change the fact that Robinson ducked Burley. Typical from you. Robinson priced himself out rather than fight him.
              Dr. Z Dr. Z likes this.

              Comment


              • #77
                Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post

                Oh so addition to the black murder row and Archie Moore no fights with Coco. Look like someone isn't fighting the best black fighters if the times, save Lloyd Marshal who he lost in the first fight and came back for behind the TKO him late in the 2nd. Sugar Ray Robinson was cut is both fights.


                https://theneutralcornerboxingdotcom...-golden-eight/

                I find it hilarious that you quote Compton. Are you at odds with him too?
                Do you want to go back and have another try at composing this post? Cocoa Kid had been retired for a year.
                Marshall was a light heavyweight ducked by Mills,and Lesnevich,he never fought Robinson.
                No I don't get along with Compton ,but I respect his knowledge and I will quote him or anyone else who knows what they are talking about.
                I don't get along with you .but there is nothing I respect about you!
                You are an ignorant,and illiterate buffoon.
                N B Robinson was never behind in the 2nd Turpin fight.
                ref: Ruby Goldstein 4-4 Joe Agnello 5-4 Harold Barnes 5-3
                World Middleweight Title
                Turpin down twice in the 10th round
                Just another example of your ignorance.​

                BTW Klompton states you are a bare faced liar.
                I'll give him your regards on the forum you are banned for life from when next I debate with him.
                Last edited by Ivich; 10-19-2023, 02:19 PM.

                Comment


                • #78


                  Oh so addition to the black murder row and Archie Moore no fights with Coco. Looks like someone isn't fighting the best black fighters if the times, save Lloyd Marshal who he lost in the first fight and came back for behind the TKO him late in the 2nd. Sugar Ray Robinson was cut is both fights.


                  https://theneutralcornerboxingdotcom...-golden-eight/

                  I find it hilarious that you quote Compton. Are you at odds with him too?​ - Dr. Z


                  Originally posted by Ivich View Post
                  Do you want to go back and have another try at composing this post? Cocoa Kid had been retired for a year.
                  Marshall was a light heavyweight ducked by Mills,and Lesnevich,he never fought Robinson.
                  No I don't get along with Compton ,but I respect his knowledge and I will quote him or anyone else who knows what they are talking about.

                  N B Robinson was never behind in the 2nd Turpin fight.
                  ref: Ruby Goldstein 4-4 Joe Agnello 5-4 Harold Barnes 5-3
                  World Middleweight Title
                  Turpin down twice in the 10th round
                  Just another example of your ignorance.​


                  I don't want to quote Klompton, but he called you out on BS more than once. Brutally so. He doesn't like me. Maybe it's because called him out when he said Italians have it in their DNA to cheat. Back to topic.


                  The Associated Press scored the first fight 9-4-2 for Turpin.


                  In the second on Robinson came on late to TKO him. Read the report!
                  • Turpin won rounds eight and nine on all three scorecards and opened a bad gash over Robinson's left eye in the tenth.
                  • Robinson dropped Turpin with a right to the jaw in the tenth. After getting up at the count of nine, Turpin was battered along the ropes until the referee stopped the fight.
                  • Turpin: "The referee should not have stopped it. I was perfectly keen. There were only eight seconds to go in the round, and I was covering up."

                  Anyway he fought Turpin twice and was 1-1. He clearly missed out on fights with other talented black fighters! That is my point. As usual you ignore the facts.​

                  Comment


                  • #79
                    Originally posted by GhostofDempsey View Post

                    So rather than admit you are wrong, you want to search for a quote that doesn't change the fact that Robinson ducked Burley. Typical from you. Robinson priced himself out rather than fight him.
                    Yep.

                    Comment


                    • #80
                      Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post

                      Oh so addition to the black murder row and Archie Moore no fights with Coco. Looks like someone isn't fighting the best black fighters if the times, save Lloyd Marshal who he lost in the first fight and came back for behind the TKO him late in the 2nd. Sugar Ray Robinson was cut is both fights.


                      https://theneutralcornerboxingdotcom...-golden-eight/

                      I find it hilarious that you quote Compton. Are you at odds with him too?​ - Dr. Z






                      I don't want to quote Klompton, but he called you out on BS more than once. Brutally so. He doesn't like me. Maybe it's because called him out when he said Italians have it in their DNA to cheat. Back to topic.


                      The Associated Press scored the first fight 9-4-2 for Turpin.


                      In the second on Robinson came on late to TKO him. Read the report!
                      • Turpin won rounds eight and nine on all three scorecards and opened a bad gash over Robinson's left eye in the tenth.
                      • Robinson dropped Turpin with a right to the jaw in the tenth. After getting up at the count of nine, Turpin was battered along the ropes until the referee stopped the fight.
                      • Turpin: "The referee should not have stopped it. I was perfectly keen. There were only eight seconds to go in the round, and I was covering up."

                      Anyway he fought Turpin twice and was 1-1. He clearly missed out on fights with other talented black fighters! That is my point. As usual you ignore the facts.​
                      I just posted the official score cards for the second Turpin fight,they prove Robinson was at no time behind in the fight !


                      What ****ing planet are you on?

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X
                      TOP