Did Sugar Ray Robinson avoid the black murder's row?

[Ivich]

I have changed my opinion mainly due to you. I now do not believe Robinson ducked murderer's row fighters. You make a good case.

Thank you.
ps Artie Towne wasn't really recognized as a member of The Row.I was originally just trying to cover all bases.

[Slugfester]

I think you guys over rate Burley.

I think it popular today to 'look in the know' by calling him masterful but I don't see it in his resume.

He has a trilogy with Zivic (2-1) and several bouts with Holman Williams, by whom, when it counted the most (Buffalo, summer 1945), got schooled and driven into obscurity.

Had a victory over a very young Old Mongoose, but couldn't get by Charles, Bivins, or even Georgie Abrams.

His biggest payday was a victory over Oakland Billy Smith and it was Smith who packed the stadium.

They (Zivic's promoter) even tried building a gate by having a 'homecoming fight' with Zivic in Pittsburgh.

The promotion was so dead on arrival that Zivic's manager had to buy up Burley's contract to keep him viable for the fight, and when the fight tanked at the gate, he sold him off.

Burley screwed himself over by never coming east to New York and throwing himself into the mix with the big boys. He never stepped up. I gusss

You can claim he was ducked but how does a fighter duck someone who is not around to fight?

He fought twice in New York, once at St. Nick's Arena (1942) and a second time in Buffalo, N.Y. and that's all folks. 90 plus fights and one New York City appearance.

No one had to duck him, he was never around the top guys to fight. He built his career in Pittsburgh, but when it came time to step up he chose Minnesota (why, I have no clue) and then later California. He chose the westcoast and it cost him.

Holman Williams who was also a westcoast fighter came to New York on several occasions and took on some big names. So it could be done, the fights were there, Burley wasn't.

If people were willing to fight Holman Williams, there was no reason to duck Burley, Williams was a touch better (albeit, also bigger).

I don't think the guy was ducked, just ignored.

Lots of praise, even by his contemporaries, for not really doing very much.

TITLE SHOTS: He was never ducked for a title shot. That is obvious by studying the rankings.

Even though Fleischer always ranked him high, he was never the next guy in line for a title shot.

In The Ring's Rankings, he was always a bride's maid, stuck behind SRR or Holman Williams and several others.

No doubt he got cheated out of his best years, with the titles on hold during WWII, but even then he was active and still avoided New York.

I agree now that Robinson did not duck him. But since when does a fighter call where a fight will be held, especially one with Burley's lack of pull? I guess you think he should have moved to New York City. If a promoter wanted him why wouldn't he just call him or his agent. Happens all the time without a fighter having to move to New York. I assume the man took fights where he could get them. Gene Fullmer lived in Utah his whole life. He didn't even quit Kennecott Copper until the second Robinson fight because they would not give him time off to train. He was only three months shy of guaranteeing himself a lifelong pension. He says if he had known this he would have delayed the fight another three months.

[Willie Pep 229]

I agree now that Robinson did not duck him. But since when does a fighter call where a fight will be held, especially one with Burley's lack of pull? I guess you think he should have moved to New York City. If a promoter wanted him why wouldn't he just call him or his agent. Happens all the time without a fighter having to move to New York. I assume the man took fights where he could get them. Gene Fullmer lived in Utah his whole life. He didn't even quit Kennecott Copper until the second Robinson fight because they would not give him time off to train. He was only three months shy of guaranteeing himself a lifelong pension. He says if he had known this he would have delayed the fight another three months.

Yes that's just it, no one was calling. He wasn't a big draw out west, went through several mangers and promoters, none of whom seemed to know how to sell him. So I feel the only thing he could have done was to campaign in New York.

Make himself an inevitably. He wins enough fights on MSG/St. Nick undercards it would have been more difficult for the named fighters to squeeze him out of the picture.

He could have tried to force the bigger fights by getting wins in NY and subsequently ink in the NY newspapers.

The culture was so much more regionaliized in the 1940s than it would come to be post national network TV.

It is not hard to imagine the common New York/Philadelphia/Balitmore/Boston fan barely knowning Burely's name.

[Dr. Z]

Yes that's just it, no one was calling. He wasn't a big draw out west, went through several mangers and promoters, none of whom seemed to know how to sell him. So I feel the only thing he could have done was to campaign in New York.

Make himself an inevitably. He wins enough fights on MSG/St. Nick undercards it would have been more difficult for the named fighters to squeeze him out of the picture.

He could have tried to force the bigger fights by getting wins in NY and subsequently ink in the NY newspapers.

The culture was so much more regionaliized in the 1940s than it would come to be post national network TV.

It is not hard to imagine the common New York/Philadelphia/Balitmore/Boston fan barely knowning Burely's name.

Was fellow African American California Jackie Wilson 62-19-6 who Ray Robinson barely edged ( Frank Fullam 3-5 Bill Healy 4-6 George Kelly 5-5. I would love to see that one on film ) that good or a draw??? He fought him out West.

OR black PR Jose Barrosa who Robinson drew with Robison OR Black Henry Brimm 21-18-4 ( ref: Fred Stanton 5-5 Willie DeJames 4-5 Fred Hegnauer 5-5 I would also like to see that one. Were any of them Wilson, Barrosa or Brimm on film as good as Archie Moore or the Murders row? All 7 men MADE the hall of fame!

I would say no they are not.

But you could agree that Randy Turpin was as good as Archie Moore and the black murder's row, and he beat Sugar Ray Robinson the first fight, cutting in both fights but losing the second,

Boy, it sure seems like Sugar Ray Robison had trouble with the Black talent he fought and avoided Archie Moore and the Murders row, all of which are in the hall of fame.

Many of these fighters would only receive the official recognition they deserved years after their careers. Six members of Murderers’ Row have since become International or World Hall of Famers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murderers%27_Row_(boxing)

[Ivich]

Was fellow African American California Jackie Wilson 62-19-6 who Ray Robinson barely edged ( Frank Fullam 3-5 Bill Healy 4-6 George Kelly 5-5. I would love to see that one on film ) that good or a draw??? He fought him out West.

OR black PR Jose Barrosa who Robinson drew with Robison OR Black Henry Brimm 21-18-4 ( ref: Fred Stanton 5-5 Willie DeJames 4-5 Fred Hegnauer 5-5 I would also like to see that one. Were any of them Wilson, Barrosa or Brimm on film as good as Archie Moore or the Murders row? All 7 men MADE the hall of fame!

I would say no they are not.

But you could agree that Randy Turpin was as good as Archie Moore and the black murder's row, and he beat Sugar Ray Robinson the first fight, cutting in both fights but losing the second,

Boy, it sure seems like Sugar Ray Robison had trouble with the Black talent he fought and avoided Archie Moore and the Murders row, all of which are in the hall of fame.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murderers%27_Row_(boxing)

Well you can make a reasonable claim that Wilson was better than Cocoa Kid because he beat him twice!

Wilson was also ranked at welterweight higher than those members of the Row who were welterweights .Should Robinson have by passed the number 2 Armstrong and the number 3 Wilson and fought lower ranked members of the Row instead?

Isnt this below the post script on your avatar?

"1 and #2 must fight before that happens. And after that, the winner needs to pick top-ten opponents for his title defenses."
Wasn't that what Robinson did? Pick top ten ranked opponents instead of unranked ones?

Did Robinson have trouble with opponents because of' the colour of their skin is that your premise?

Robinson won a close decision over Wilson that in itself indicates that Wilson,[ ranked number 3.] was a good fighter? You tried to imply that Robinson got the benefit of a hometown decision against Wilson .calling Robinson "the house fighter".of course being true to form you offered no evidence that this was the case .When I pointed out that Wilson was a NY favourite and fought there many more times than Robinson did ,you fell silent.
Wilson gave Robinson trouble in their first fight,in the rematch Robinson ko'd him in7 rounds
Basora got a draw against Robinson in their first fight,in the rematch Robinson stopped him in 55 seconds.Turpin beat Robinson in their first fight ,Robinson had left his legs the bedrooms of Paris.
In the rematch Robinson ko'd him,and the cut in the 2nd fight was caused by a butt!
WTF is BAROSSA?
Its obvious you are trying to salvage something from the debacle that your original question has become for you,but really ,when you are in a deep hole ,stop digging !

You are not improving your position any with these silly little diatribes,you're really not!

Robinson had already beaten Brimm by unanimous decision. A month after drawing with Robinson Brimm drew with Basora!
He also has a win over Holman Williams on his record.this indicates he was a good fighter imo.

The only trouble Robinson had with fighting black guys was he didn't get enough dough for doing so!

Here's another question for you to NOT reply to?lol
Were the welter weight Murderers Row better than Kid Gavilan who Robinson beat twice, and who succeeded him as champion?
Were they better than Tommy Bell,whom Robinson beat twice?

Here are some of the black guys Robinson fought;
Basora x2
Costner
Gavilan x2
Mims
Bell x2
Wade
Wilson x2
Armstrong
Jones
Barnes
Turpin x2 16 fights 2 defeats
One to Jones when Robinson was on his comeback .
One to Turpin avenged by ko * Turpin's Father was Guyanan.his Mother was a white English lady.


The only trouble Robinson had with fighting black guys was he usually couldn't get the money fighting them he got for fighting the white boys !!!

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32059584]


The only trouble Robinson had with fighting black guys was he usually couldn't get the money fighting them he got for fighting the white boys !!![/QUOTE

Really? How about beating them, instead of drawing with them and losing to them! These were non- HOF men with mediocre records. Only problem?




And the purses of the made with these mediocre black men would not be more than he would not be more than he would make vs Archie Moore or
Any member of the black murder's row!


I might insert all of ****** / don't make any sense quotes into one thread.

[Willie Pep 229]

If you used this forum as your only source of information a historian would have to conclude that every black fighter, who never held a title, was one of the greatest fighter's of all time.

The White, and Black fighters, who actually held titles, were all second rate duckers.

On this forum the only thing you need, to be an all time great, is to be black and make sure you never win a title.

Be black and win a title and you become a 'ducker.' No matter the circumstances. E.g. Johnson, Louis, SRR.

[Ivich]

If you used this forum as your only source of information a historian would have to conclude that every black fighter, who never held a title, was one of the greatest fighter's of all time.

The White, and Black fighters, who actually held titles, were all second rate duckers.

On this forum the only thing you need, to be an all time great, is to be black and make sure you never win a title.

Be black and win a title and you become a 'ducker.' No matter the circumstances. E.g. Johnson, Louis, SRR.

Well said!

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Dr. Z;n32059627]

The only trouble Robinson had with fighting black guys was he usually couldn't get the money fighting them he got for fighting the white boys !!![/QUOTE

Really? How about beating them, instead of drawing with them and losing to them! These were non- HOF men with mediocre records. Only problem?




And the purses of the made with these mediocre black men would not be more than he would not be more than he would make vs Archie Moore or
Any member of the black murder's row!


I might insert all of ****** / don't make any sense quotes into one thread.

You asked for Robinsons purses,I provided them.
What have you provided to support your opinion?
All the Row were retired by the end of 1951
In 1941 Wilson was number 2 behind Robinson and in front of Burley,Williams,and Cocoa Kid,if he was mediocre what were they?
Brimm drew with Robinson, and Basora, lost a split dec to Belloise, and beat Holman Williams if he was mediocre how good were the men he beat and drew with?

Burley himself stated there was no money to be made for a fight between himself and Robinson,he also said his biggest purse was under $3000.
Given these facts why would Robinson take a fight with Burley,where was the financial incentive?

For the rematch against Basilio,Robinson ,the challenger, got nearly half a million dollars.

Moore? He did not fight between Feb 1941 and Jan 1942 he was hospitalized with ulcers.
Robinson retired in1952 and came back in1955.
In 1945 Moore was the number 1 ranked light heavyweight, Robinson was the number ranked welterweight,given this fact , explain how Robinson ducked him?
While you are at it, explain how such a match with 2 contenders at 2 different weight divisions would have drawn a big gate?

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32059791]

You asked for Robinsons purses,I provided them
All the Row were retired by the end of 1951
In 1941 Wilson was number 2 behind Robinson and in front of Burley,Williams,and Cocoa Kid,if he was mediocre what were they?
Brimm drew with Robinson, and Basora, lost a split dec to Belloise, and beat Holman Williams if he was mediocre how good were the men he beat and drew with?

Burley himself stated there was no money to be made for a fight between himself and Robinson,he also said his biggest purse was under $3000.
Given these facts why would Robinson take a fight with Burley,where was the financial incentive?

For the rematch against Basilio,Robinson ,the challenger, got nearly half a million dollars.

Moore? He did not fight between Feb 1941 and Jan 1942 he was hospitalized with ulcers.
Robinson retired in1952 and came back in1955.
In 1945 Moore was the number 1 ranked light heavyweight, Robinson was the number ranked welterweight,given this fact , explain how Robinson ducked him?
While you are at it, explain how such a match with 2 contenders at 2 different weight divisions would have drawn a big gate?

Lets see if you can grasp these facts?
After 1942 no members of the Row were ranked at Welterweight.
After 1948 no members of the Row were ranked at middleweight.
Robinson waited 5 years for his Welterweight title opportunity.
Moore waited 7 years for his Light heavyweight title opportunity.

When Robinson asked promoters why he wasn't getting his chance at the welter title he was told,"you'd darken the division".
Boxing is a business and the men who promote fights do so to make a profit,invariably they will choose the match up that gives them the most profit ,and boxers do like wise.
In the 40's and 50's the following men reigned as world champions.
Welter'
Zivic , Cochrane .
Among their ranked challengers were;
Robinson,Wilson,Burley,Williams Cocoa Kid,Hudson,Bell.All Black

How many did they defend against?

Middle.
Champions Zale,Cerdan,Graziano,Lamotta.Among their ranked challengers were;

Charles,Moore,Lytell,Basora,Williams,Chase,Booker, Wade,Tunero,Cocoa Kid.All Black.

How many did they defend against?

Light heavy.
Champions.Lesnevich,Mills.
Among their ranked challengers were;

Moore,Marshall,Chase,Beckwith,Bolden,Williams,Char ley Doc Williams,,Lytell,Johnson,Morrow.All Black.

How many did they defend against?
In several Southern states mixed matches were still not permitted.
Now ask yourself why those White champions did not defend against Black challengers in the states in which they could?
Why did they fight White challengers instead?
For the same reason Willie Sutton robbed banks."Because that's where the money was" !
In the 40's& 50's the majority of those paying admission to boxing matches were White.
Promoters therefore generally made cards in which White fighters were prominently featured, this was to maximise the return on their investment!

As Yank Durham ,Joe Frazier's manager once said,when asked if he and Joe were for Black Power?

"we are for Green Power!"