Did Sugar Ray Robinson avoid the black murder's row?

[QueensburyRules]

Nobody wanted to waste their time with Burley. His gate numbers were not bad, they were dismal.

As Ivich says, this is a business. People always think fighters duck other fighters because they're scared. That is such nonsense, from people who don't actually study the fight game outside the ring.

- - What would be interesting is lining up all the "fabled" murderers row to find out how many faced each other, meaning at least a dozen "ducks" by my assumption.

Of course making a thread saying Charley Burley ducked some of murderers row would be a nonstarter save for the Vitch, Z, and recently ascended monkeyman slinging shyte for expertise.

[Dr. Z]

Notice he's only talking about Robinson of the early 1940s. He skipped an entire second half of the decade of his career.

You don't say. Tony " Ivich " Mcvey, what do you say about this?

[IronDanHamza]

I don't think that would have been much of a draw,but I would have put my money on Cocoa Kid ,him being 15 years old and Robinson only7!
Do you mean 1939?If you do you're wrong again.Robinson did not turn pro until1940!
In1940 Cocoa Kid was a top ten ranked Welterweight and Robinson was 19 years old light weight!
If you meant 1949 you're also wrong, Cocoa Kid died in1948!
The Kid left the ratings in1942 when he was ranked no 4
Number 1 was Robinson.
Number 2 was Armstrong.
Number 3 was Wilson.
Yeah in 42 Robinson ducked the number 4 ranked Kid and instead fought the number 2 and the number 3 contenders!
He also fought the number 7 Jannazzo twice , giving him 8lbs , and the number 8 Zivic giving him 6lbs.
Plus among others.;
Servo
Angott
Rubio
Oh, and another easier opponent, the number 8 ranked middleweight Lamotta ,to whom he conceded 13lbs.
Old Ray sure picked his spots didn't he?

I meant 1949.

Cocoa Kid didn’t die in 1948, he died in 1966.

Like I said in the post, Cocoa Kid came in as a replacement for Burton but Robinson turned it down and subsequently didn’t turn up for the rescheduled bout between the two.

Look it up, it happened.

[Ivich]

I meant 1949.

Cocoa Kid didn’t die in 1948, he died in 1966.

Like I said in the post, Cocoa Kid came in as a replacement for Burton but Robinson turned it down and subsequently didn’t turn up for the rescheduled bout between the two.

Look it up, it happened.

My bad.
You are wrong anyway
Cocoa Kid retired in1948 which is what I meant to say,he had his last fight in August of that year.
Oh and I have been looking it up I always do!

"Cocoa Kid is used to denigrate Robinson and its said that Robinson ducked him while he was rated all this time. Not true. Robinson won his title in December 1946. A week after that Cocoa Kid lost an 8 rounder to 11-2 Eddie Oneill. Two weeks after that he drew with 15-3-3 Oneill Bell. He won 6 of his next 13 fights and ended his career 178-56-11. Yet we are supposed to believe Robinson ran out of a match out of fear with a guy who had been retired a year and lost his last fight which was an 8 rounder to an unknown with a 26-11 record." Steve Compton.


"Just before Ring 1942 rankings were released Robinson defeated Izzy Jannazzo twice in successive fights. Janazzo has beaten Cocao Kid twice in the preceding two years and was 1-1-1 with Holman Williams. “SC

"Ray ducked me. George Gainford (Ray's manager) admitted that much. But, I can't say I blame him. There wasn't no money in us fighting each other. All we would have done is knock each other off."

"You know, to me the most remarkable thing about Ray's career is that he didn't even get a shot at the welterweight title til he was 26- or the middleweight title til' he was 30! You think he was the greatest? What do you think he'd a been if he'd gotten his chances when he deserved them? You wanna know the truth? If I coulda' got my shot, I wouldn't have risked it fighting someone like Ray."
Charley Burley

It's from the chapter "Robinson Ducks" in this book:

[Ivich]

I meant 1949.

Cocoa Kid didn’t die in 1948, he died in 1966.

Like I said in the post, Cocoa Kid came in as a replacement for Burton but Robinson turned it down and subsequently didn’t turn up for the rescheduled bout between the two.

Look it up, it happened.

My bad.
You are wrong anyway
Cocoa Kid retired in1948 which is what I meant to say,he had his last fight in August of that year.
Oh and I have been looking it up I always do!
In 1941, Robinson entered the year still a teenager. He had 20 fights, including wins over Angott, Zivic, and Servo, weighing as little as 135 for Max Shapiro on 9/19/1941. He was 137 for the 137 lb. Angott in July.

in 1942, Robinson didn't fight the #4 guy, the Cocoa Kid, but he was personally the #1 contender, and he would fight the #2 and #3 contenders, Henry Armstrong and Jackie Wilson.

I missed that Robinson was the #1 middleweight contender in 1949, but as a contender he had beaten both the champion and the #5 contender. Why he must fight the #6 man I will leave up to you. He would soon fight the #3 man, Villemain.
Edward Morbius.

[Ivich]

Nobody wanted to waste their time with Burley. His gate numbers were not bad, they were dismal.

As Ivich says, this is a business. People always think fighters duck other fighters because they're scared. That is such nonsense, from people who don't actually study the fight game outside the ring.

1. "Charley himself admitted that he would have wanted no part of Ray if their positions had been reversed.
   
   Burley was around a dozen or more pounds heavier at most times during their parallel careers in the 1940s. Ray made his debut at 134 in October 1940. A few months earlier, Charley came in at 156 for Abrams. By 1945, Burley was coming in as high as 166, while Robby barely got to 150. SRR finally attained the WW Title at the end of 1946, Burley's last really significant year of competition. By then Charley was a long time full fledged MW who hadn't made 147 since a year and a half before Ray turned professional.
   
   For Burley to really push for a match between the two, he needed to break away from California, Pittsburgh and Minneapolis, and establish a shadowing presence in eastern PA, NYC, Detroit, Chicago and New Jersey, favored haunts of Ray's where the fight going public was familiar with the Sugar Man.
   
   A sterling record was quickly amassed by Robinson. Eight months after his entry into the punch for pay ranks, he beat reigning LW king Angott for the movie camera. Burley had nine defeats by the end of 1942. 54(34KO)-9(0)-1 is a very respectable record based upon numbers alone, but it doesn't quite have the luster of the pristine 40(29KO)-0-0 that Robby entered 1943 with. By that time, Ray had already beaten Servo, Zivic and Angott 2X each, stopping the uber tough Fritzie on the second attempt, where Burley had previously failed in three tries. He was also one for one against up and coming contemporary LaMotta, the only full sized MW contender he would tangle with prior to the end of WW II.
   
   Jake had an enormous advantage over Burley when it came to getting fights with Robinson. He was so much of a New Yorker that "Bronx Bull" was among his monikers. LaMotta was able to secure those numerous high profile venue locations like NYC, Philly, Chicago, and Detroit for his bouts.
   
   Even with the advantages LaMotta and Robinson had over Burley, they had a long wait and difficult time finally securing title shots. If it was hard for Robby and Jake, then what chance did the much lower profile and less glamorous or compelling Murderer's Row clique have?"

[IronDanHamza]

My bad.
You are wrong anyway
Cocoa Kid retired in1948 which is what I meant to say,he had his last fight in August of that year.
Oh and I have been looking it up I always do!
In 1941, Robinson entered the year still a teenager. He had 20 fights, including wins over Angott, Zivic, and Servo, weighing as little as 135 for Max Shapiro on 9/19/1941. He was 137 for the 137 lb. Angott in July.

in 1942, Robinson didn't fight the #4 guy, the Cocoa Kid, but he was personally the #1 contender, and he would fight the #2 and #3 contenders, Henry Armstrong and Jackie Wilson.

I missed that Robinson was the #1 middleweight contender in 1949, but as a contender he had beaten both the champion and the #5 contender. Why he must fight the #6 man I will leave up to you. He would soon fight the #3 man, Villemain.
Edward Morbius.

So you are telling me that in 1949 when Robinson-Burton fell through that Cocoa Kid wasn’t offered the fight and Robinson didn’t turn it down?

And you’re also telling me that a rescheduled bout between the two wasn’t made for May of 49 and Robinson didn’t turn up to the arena?

Because both of these things happened.

[Ivich]

You keep going on about who else he fought during the early 1940s. The fact is he avoided guys like Burley, Williams, Marshall and a few others throughout the late 1940s. I like Robinson, he's an ATG, but even your superman has a few kinks in his armor.

I dislike Robinson intensely I think he was a POS.
I've asked you to go through these guys chronologically and tell me when Ray should have fought them,but you are doing what you usually do, snipe from the sidelines.
Now ,once again .select your member or members of Murderers Row and state when Robinson should have fought him/them.
Oh and by the way I didn't focus on the early 40's those three years were selected by Z
.Now come on.
BE A MAN MAKE YOUR CASE.I AM VERY HAPPY TO DEBATE WITH YOU.
SO COME OUT FROM BEHIND THE CURTAIN AND TRY AND STAB ME IN THE FRONT FOR A CHANGE! lol

[Ivich]

So you are telling me that in 1949 when Robinson-Burton fell through that Cocoa Kid wasn’t offered the fight and Robinson didn’t turn it down?

And you’re also telling me that a rescheduled bout between the two was made for May of 49 and Robinson didn’t turn up to the arena?

Because both of these things happened.

I'm telling you that a past it Cocoa Kid had been retired for a year.so.Why on earth would Robinson avoid him unless it was a financial decision?

Robinson signed to fight the number 6 Burton but when that fell thought he ducked out of a fight with the past, it unranked, retired for a year Kid who had lost his last fight to a journeyman?
What a coward!
How much do you think such a match would have drawn?

[Ivich]

You keep going on about who else he fought during the early 1940s. The fact is he avoided guys like Burley, Williams, Marshall and a few others throughout the late 1940s. I like Robinson, he's an ATG, but even your superman has a few kinks in his armor.

You do know that the Row was not ranked when Robinson was Middleweight champion don't you?
That being the case what would be the point of concentrating on the"second half of Robinsons career?"
Holman Williams left the ratings in1945 and retired in1948
Bert Lytell retired in1951
Burley retired in1950
Wade in1950
Tunero in1948
Marshall in1951 he was campaigning as a lhvy then
Bolden retired in1948 he too was fighting as a lhvy
Chase retired in1948 he was another fighting as a light heavy

But be my guest, pick out as many as you want and give your years Robinson should have fought them.

Nail your colours to your mast ! I really wish you would!