It's actually impossible to gain punching power through gaining weight and "putting on" muscle

[them_apples]

That's literally basic physics. Force = Mass x Acceleration. Not velocity. Power is just force on target. Velocity times mass is momentum, which isn't directly relevant to power. That's why almost everything in this particular post is problematic.

Getting your acceleration right is everything. That's part of why Ali and Robinson, etc, were able to be quick without tell. The faster your acceleration is, the faster your punch builds speed (velocity) by definition. If you want your punch to get there as quickly as possible, it needs to go from zero velocity to the highest velocity you can manage as quickly as possible. That's what acceleration IS. The idea of acceleration in boxing is that your punch gets there before they have a chance to react.

Also, due to the fixed length of the arm, if your acceleration isn't fast, you won't be able to achieve as high velocity, but that's a byproduct and irrelevant to the force picture. Speed and mass is just momentum.

This isn't a matter of opinion. This is definitional stuff. Look it up if you don't believe it. But you really ought to know F=Ma without looking it up if you want to talk about power.

When it comes to the examples you gave, we get into kinetic chain. If you're tense at the shoulders, your kinetic chain stops there, and the force you've developed has to push the mass of your entire arm. If you're talking about the mass of the forearm, that means you're tense at the elbow and not turning the punch over. Maximizing the kinetic chain means you leverage acceleration from as many joints as possible, including the wrist. That relaxation means you don't have the antagonist muscles working against you in each of the joints, and you can maximize the acceleration of each contraction of the agonist muscle groups. Then you tense up at the moment of impact and structure comes into play.

You don't need to load up to maximize acceleration. That's actually the worst thing you can do. Truly being explosive isn't telegraphing. If there's telegraphing, it is because you're taking so long to accelerate up to speed that the opponent has time to react. That's the exact opposite of high acceleration. By definition, it's about getting to higher speeds as quickly as possible.

It almost sounds like you don't understand what acceleration even IS.

Momentum is primarily relevant to boxing in terms of defense, not power or offense. If you're going to preach about power, you need to have your basic physics correct, and you don't.

I’m not arguing a lot of what you say is true. Its the bulking with muscle mass somehow converting to punching power that I don’t agree with.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Iâm not arguing a lot of what you say is true. Its the bulking with muscle mass somehow converting to punching power that I donât agree with.

Most of the time, you're right, it doesn't, because they don't really know how to leverage their mass anyways, so it comes at the expense of acceleration. And then there's all kinds of other problems, most notably it really depletes their gas tanks. Look at how fast Canelo gassed out when he increased weight, or both Fury and Wilder when they bulked up. But it's not like it's impossible, it just needs to be trained correctly. When Usyk first moved up to heavy, his gas tank was really affected, but he's now able to maintain his engine way better. And there's a power generation technique that can allow almost anyone to hit harder with more mass, although I think that's really a separate topic.

Part of the problem comes from the fact that so many fighters artificially drain themselves to make lower weights, and so when they move up classes, they're not actually putting on more mass really, and that's different from putting on muscle mass to try to get stronger and expecting that to increase power. A lot of fighters also do things like weight lifting, which increases slow strength, but not explosive acceleration. Plyometric training coupled with endurance training works way better for enhancing power. That's one of the reasons that jump rope is so good for combat sports.

[billeau2]

I think we're all in agreement that solely increasing mass isn't necessarily going to do much. Mass increases are relatively miniscule increases compared to addressing technical issues with maximizing kinetic chain, and often come at the expense of acceleration. There IS a way to leverage additional mass without really compromising your kinetic chain otherwise for short range punches, but that's really a separate topic. Most fighters will benefit far more from perfecting their technique or reducing tension than from putting on a few pounds of mass, especially in the short term. It takes at minimum 6 months to adjust to a significant increase in muscle, usually more than a year if you don't want it to affect your gas tank, which means a lot of endurance training with strength maintenance workouts. You can potentially cut that down prior to putting on the muscle mass by training with things like Omorpho weighted clothing, just to get some of the muscles more used to carrying extra weight, and doing high altitude training, but it's very tricky to keep the muscle mass on while maximizing endurance.

Muscles have two phases for producing work, in addition to the chemical ionization that occurs, They have to have a point where they start the contraction. Moving this point on the beginning/ending of a movement gives the muscles more potential for work. Hence, the relaxation phase prior to pulling. There is the actual length of pulling (the range) and the actual force exerted on the bone (ligament) or other muscle tissues (Tendon). So conditioning involves range of movement, as well as strength of movement. But relaxation is a habit, it is partially physiological and partially mental... a good deal of it comes from efficiency through repetition. We train our muscle memory.

The kinetic chain also depends on timing. Dempsey in his brilliant book on punching talks about the dead step... In older Chinese Boxing a similar idea is entertained, in both cases, if our step is timed to coincide with our strike and maximum extension we can exert, we are generating a lot of power! Of course, you mentioned short punches as a separate topic and this is an interesting aside. One way to look at a short punch is as a movement, at least initially, independent of extending the arm outwards. Imagine someone stepping, elbows in, fists vertical... This punch has considerable power without any extension, but if we transfer that power at the last second and throw the vertical like a piston, we have essentially the old fashioned "lead" that was used, often as a type of jab, or as a very precise blow to the chin tip, or the plexus.

This does get more complex, when we start to divide the movement in transferring energy to the target... when our step, extension, and weight transfer is timed to meet as close to all at once as we can make it, this is power in a direct transfer... Beautiful and not incredibly difficult to master. We even can see when we are off a fraction how the step puts energy into the ground (not opponent), or if not extended forward, we can feel energy not transferred come back to our frame, and finally, we can feel how any unnecessary exstension of an elbow out, a wrist at the wrong angle, a leg not braced, all take power away from our strike. BUT how do we transfer our hit if it is two movements? Like a lead? where we fire the arm as a piston independent of the body's momentum? Or if we are whipping a blow and want to take a step, load the spine/hips and crack a target? This gets tricky. There is no easy answer. I have found that doing a circular movement effectively means bracing the body, not letting the knees turn, etc. Creating a base for centripedial movement to complete. But I have not found a way to take the potential energy of a step and use this in a circular movement lol!

[crimsonfalcon07]

Muscles have two phases for producing work, in addition to the chemical ionization that occurs, They have to have a point where they start the contraction. Moving this point on the beginning/ending of a movement gives the muscles more potential for work. Hence, the relaxation phase prior to pulling. There is the actual length of pulling (the range) and the actual force exerted on the bone (ligament) or other muscle tissues (Tendon). So conditioning involves range of movement, as well as strength of movement. But relaxation is a habit, it is partially physiological and partially mental... a good deal of it comes from efficiency through repetition. We train our muscle memory.

The kinetic chain also depends on timing. Dempsey in his brilliant book on punching talks about the dead step... In older Chinese Boxing a similar idea is entertained, in both cases, if our step is timed to coincide with our strike and maximum extension we can exert, we are generating a lot of power! Of course, you mentioned short punches as a separate topic and this is an interesting aside. One way to look at a short punch is as a movement, at least initially, independent of extending the arm outwards. Imagine someone stepping, elbows in, fists vertical... This punch has considerable power without any extension, but if we transfer that power at the last second and throw the vertical like a piston, we have essentially the old fashioned "lead" that was used, often as a type of jab, or as a very precise blow to the chin tip, or the plexus.

This does get more complex, when we start to divide the movement in transferring energy to the target... when our step, extension, and weight transfer is timed to meet as close to all at once as we can make it, this is power in a direct transfer... Beautiful and not incredibly difficult to master. We even can see when we are off a fraction how the step puts energy into the ground (not opponent), or if not extended forward, we can feel energy not transferred come back to our frame, and finally, we can feel how any unnecessary exstension of an elbow out, a wrist at the wrong angle, a leg not braced, all take power away from our strike. BUT how do we transfer our hit if it is two movements? Like a lead? where we fire the arm as a piston independent of the body's momentum? Or if we are whipping a blow and want to take a step, load the spine/hips and crack a target? This gets tricky. There is no easy answer. I have found that doing a circular movement effectively means bracing the body, not letting the knees turn, etc. Creating a base for centripedial movement to complete. But I have not found a way to take the potential energy of a step and use this in a circular movement lol!

Good stuff in here. I think we're getting a little far afield from OP here, but power generation is one of my favorite topics. Spent many years studying it.

The concurrent step works because it speaks to two components of power: weight transfer, which is central to maximizing the mass relevant to the punch (which is why the forearm/fist business is nonsense, because the more mass you move in the direction of the punch, the more powerful the punch will be), and structure for energy transfer. The basic concept there is normal force, eg equal and opposite reaction. If, as you say, the frame isn't right, the energy gets absorbed in those flaws. With the step, the body automatically tenses at the moment of landing both punch and step, and is more likely to have good structure in the line of force.

I don't really want to get into the methods of power generation here, but in terms of getting your step power on that hook using centripetal motion, which is based on the same concept as "sitting down on the punch" at the end of the day, remember it's fundamentally about weight transfer in the direction of the punch. You can generate that power by dropping your weight sideways onto your BACK foot at the moment of impact. Basically, whip your hook just like normal, but as the punch lands, almost let yourself fall to the side in the direction of the punch and catch your weight with your back foot. Should feel similar to when you're riding a train or a bus and it jolts over a bump and you catch yourself. Think of it as a very explosive drop in a very short space.

Just please wrap your hands and get your wrist wrap tight when you practice. I've seen quite a few people hurt their wrists practicing this because they weren't expecting the power increase. Suggest using the straight finger fist too, rather than the traditional, as it's way better at absorbing shock structurally. Let me know if the explanation doesn't make sense.

[ShoulderRoll]

Its honestly such a similar comparison. It doesnâÃÂÃÂt matter.

the last part No though

the mass isnât directly converted to punching power. If the mass was on the wrist area and the muscles around it were strong enough to propel it then sure. But putting on weight all around your body isnt going to do much. Doesnt matter about what science says, look at what actually happens in the ring. Nobody EVER became a better puncher by bulking.

The weight you gain from mass is negated by being slower, less energy efficient and worse technique due to being heavier and thicker. This is why body builders canâÃÂÃÂt punch.

then factor in you cant pull the trigger as fast when you are heavier.

The equation and the science don’t lie.

F= m x a.

If you can keep the acceleration the same while increasing the mass behind your punch then the force will increase. Or if you keep the same mass but increase the acceleration of your punch then the force will also increase.

The details of how that is done can differ. There can be nuance in how you bulk up while not losing speed…or of how you build more explosiveness, whether through plyometrics or better punch technique or whatever.

But at the end of the day the physics has to hold true.

[billeau2]

Good stuff in here. I think we're getting a little far afield from OP here, but power generation is one of my favorite topics. Spent many years studying it.

The concurrent step works because it speaks to two components of power: weight transfer, which is central to maximizing the mass relevant to the punch (which is why the forearm/fist business is nonsense, because the more mass you move in the direction of the punch, the more powerful the punch will be), and structure for energy transfer. The basic concept there is normal force, eg equal and opposite reaction. If, as you say, the frame isn't right, the energy gets absorbed in those flaws. With the step, the body automatically tenses at the moment of landing both punch and step, and is more likely to have good structure in the line of force.

I don't really want to get into the methods of power generation here, but in terms of getting your step power on that hook using centripetal motion, which is based on the same concept as "sitting down on the punch" at the end of the day, remember it's fundamentally about weight transfer in the direction of the punch. You can generate that power by dropping your weight sideways onto your BACK foot at the moment of impact. Basically, whip your hook just like normal, but as the punch lands, almost let yourself fall to the side in the direction of the punch and catch your weight with your back foot. Should feel similar to when you're riding a train or a bus and it jolts over a bump and you catch yourself. Think of it as a very explosive drop in a very short space.

Just please wrap your hands and get your wrist wrap tight when you practice. I've seen quite a few people hurt their wrists practicing this because they weren't expecting the power increase. Suggest using the straight finger fist too, rather than the traditional, as it's way better at absorbing shock structurally. Let me know if the explanation doesn't make sense.

Ahh the hand... Yep. The concerns in boxing were focused on the hands before Gloves become more of a prophalactic. The hands become the weakest link. All the great body mechanics are for naught if one hurts the hands... I spend a good deal of time conditioning the hands.

The hook can become an opposite directional step. Foot lands going back as hand connects. There are many ways of generating force in a strike. They all have a logic to them, some better than others.

[billeau2]

Its honestly such a similar comparison. It doesnâÃÂÃÂt matter.

the last part No though

the mass isnât directly converted to punching power. If the mass was on the wrist area and the muscles around it were strong enough to propel it then sure. But putting on weight all around your body isnt going to do much. Doesnt matter about what science says, look at what actually happens in the ring. Nobody EVER became a better puncher by bulking.

The weight you gain from mass is negated by being slower, less energy efficient and worse technique due to being heavier and thicker. This is why body builders canâÃÂÃÂt punch.

then factor in you cant pull the trigger as fast when you are heavier.

A lot of the confusion here comes from teachers (martial arts) trainers (boxing) not being specific. Shoulder Roll is right saying the physics are the physics, but even when we talk about the physics Einstein and Newton are addressing different things and when we deal with forces (Newton) there are many more variables than how big things move affected by gravity (Einstein). Figuring out something like the gravitational pull on a particular body, with no levers, no accelorators, is one thing, but something like a body? it takes a lot of experience to categorize movement dynamics.

For example, for years people are told in Bujinkan, "assume a 45/90 angle..." Nobody ever, in all the time I studied that particular art, evre asked "according to what on my opponent should I assume my angle?" And Lo and Behold when you play with the stuff it turns out this distinction becomes very important. When we assume an angle with the opponent's body it is one thing, as compared to assuming an angle to what the opponent is throwing. One angular movement is a whole body movement (Tai Jutsu) the other is a segmented movement where we move the upper body primarily (Tai Sabaki).

The problem is, if ask a teacher in that system about fundamentals, I am never told the distinction. So when a trainer wants to create more power and understands the basis of how to do this from the level of physics, he is taking a truth (as Shoulder Roll says) but is he specifically using that truth as it applies to the dynamics of a punch? Considering the effects off centapedial forces and how they interact with linear forces, and considering the rotation of our spine, our joints, we really need more than an understanding that independent of each other, increasing either mass, or acceleration with all else constant, will help us hit harder. This understanding has to be integrated fully with other things that constitute the kinetic chain.

[QueensburyRules]

Iâm not arguing a lot of what you say is true. Its the bulking with muscle mass somehow converting to punching power that I donât agree with.

- - Noone ever agrees with you...NOONE!!!

[cyril layman]

Correct, but this is what I said.

its the weight of the forearm x velocity. Technique (leverage) having a crucial role as well. Those that really find the perfect leverage point for their own bodies are rare.

Duran stands out to me, Chavez, Arguello, Joe frazier, Robinson.

You are born with punching power it's not something that can be taught.P4P I think Hearns & Julian Jackson are at top of the list while at HW Foreman & Shavers are at top of the list.Duran was considered to have one of the best chins in boxing history but when he fought Hearns at 154 Hearns knocked him down twice in the 1st round & in the 2nd round knocked him cold with 1 punch.Hagler one of the greatest middle weights of all time & also iron chin was hurt early in round 1 by Hearns he did catch Hagler early in the round when Hagler wasn't warmed up yet but later started to walk through those right hands & not sure if it was he wasn't warmed up yet or that Hearns broke his right hand early in that round.I saw a lot of Hagler fights & only time i saw him hurt,even against John the beast Magbi 260026 KO he walked through every thing he threw.Everyone wants to be that guy with a big punch it's why people pay top dollar to see a fight so if it could be taught everyone would come into the ring with KO power.

[Slugfester]

Being knocked off position like Leonard was early by Duran, does not mean a fighter is hurt. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. That phrase is a catchall for announcers and fans alike. Announcers always say, "He's hurt! He hurt him with that one!" How do they know? Sometimes you barely feel punches that look hard, and then an average one actually does hurt you, as in pain. Staggered, got it; rocked, plain to see; pain, but pain itself can be hidden. I always wonder: when does it actually hurt and when is a boxer showing the effects of being hit hard but not hurting?

One thing for sure: announcers use the word way too much.