It's actually impossible to gain punching power through gaining weight and "putting on" muscle

[Dr. Z]

The post is the statement, here are my reasons to back it up: we are talking about punches here, not pushes. short, fast abrupt and strong impacts designed to peircing the bodies natural defense (bracing)

1). It's never happened, every fighter was a better puncher at a lighter weight. (straight logic here) given they are fully grown

2). A punch is about velocity and weight of the object (fist/wrist). You can't make your muscles bigger to improve this. It doesn't work like that.

The only way to become a harder puncher by getting heavier is by growing naturally, through bone structure and actual muscles + tendons. like a teenager does when he becomes a man.

You can condition your muscles to be well used and strong, but once you bulk you start losing velocity, mobility and dexterity because it's not natural to your body. Once again, never has this been done before so let's stop pretending it's a thing.

Size is determined by your natural bone structure and musculature. Not by how big your make your legs' from squatting, or biceps from curling. This is purely aesthetics.

making yourself stronger at your natural weight is a different story all together. Any type of MASS or "put on" muscle will never increase your power, ever.

When someone lifts weights in the gym for years, and their muscles eventually grow, it's the body's way of adapting to the environment it's being put through. Standing around and lifting heavy things tells your body it needs to build muscle. Sprinters get the same thing.

Why would you ever do this in boxing? we had 100's of years saying don't do this, and only in this era do they all of a sudden become "modern conditioning" being told to us by strength and conditioning coaches with Kin degrees but 0 degree in boxing. Why do people play along with this joke?

You never see Mayweather touching weights, he grew up around all great fighters. He did it right. But he's wrong??

come on people have faith in your own observation.

Yes, but it not all about velocity, otherwise the lower weight would hit harder! It about mass and velocity. Technique matters as well. Too much weight lifting takes away from the flexibity and the velocity part of the equation. Some of it helps.

[them_apples]

Yes, but it not all about velocity, otherwise the lower weight would hit harder! It about mass and velocity. Technique matters as well. Too much weight lifting takes away from the flexibity and the velocity part of the equation. Some of it helps.

Correct, but this is what I said.

its the weight of the forearm x velocity. Technique (leverage) having a crucial role as well. Those that really find the perfect leverage point for their own bodies are rare.

Duran stands out to me, Chavez, Arguello, Joe frazier, Robinson.

[them_apples]

What is all this bull with he capital A?

Its the forum screwing up because I type from a phone

[them_apples]

You got your physics slightly wrong here, although your conclusion is mostly correct.

It's ACCELERATION and MASS, not velocity and weight.

Basically, the more of your body mass you can get involved in the punch (weight transfer), and the faster you get it in motion, the more force you'll have in your punch in an absolute sense.

When you hit the target, things like force transfer and penetration matter. If you have poor structure, the equal and opposite reaction will mean a portion of your power will get absorbed by your own body instead of transferring to the opponent. The more surface area you hit with, the less penetration you'll have, and the less internal damage will happen. Plus, you have to deal with counter forces, eg, if the opponent sees the punch coming they'll be able to brace for it, and you'll have less effect from the same force.

You also have to worry about being defensively responsible. More weight transfer done wrong can also take you out of position and make it harder to avoid the counter shot.

More mass CAN absolutely help you punch harder, but it's also more exhausting. Muscles eat oxygen like crazy, so they will have a disproportionate effect on your gas tank. And you still have to recover your position from the punch, and that will take correspondingly more energy too. And, even though you get more mass to move around, it can come at the expense of acceleration if it's done wrong.

So for most fighters, it's not really going to be worth it, especially in the short term, because the rest of their performance will suffer, and then long term power suffers too, so they'll be less likely to get knockouts the later it gets in the fight.

In a technical sense, you absolutely can get more power from more (muscle) mass, but you need to train it extensively to counter the loss of endurance, and the overwhelming majority of fighters will be able to get more power more effectively from learning how to properly engage the kinetic chain to maximize weight transfer and acceleration than in adding a relatively tiny amount of mass.

-edit- One more point. You talk about fist/wrist, but if a fighter is tense farther up in the kinetic chain, such as in the shoulders, the energy generated needs to push substantially more mass, at the expense of force and acceleration. The most power, as you know, comes when the body is relaxed throughout the entire kinetic chain, and only tenses at the moment of impact. That's another common area for improvement.

No I’m not wrong.

it is just velocity x mass

acceleration plays a role, but at the end of the day no matter how you get to it - it comes down to velocity x mass of the forearm.

Acceleration can be a pretty tricky subject to get into. Because exploding so much in an attempt to gain velocity is not only energy consuming and not economical, but it also telegraphs the punch. Its like saying, hey look im fast and explosive! But ill tell you every time I am gonna punch. A perfect example is Floyd vs Canelo. Canelo looks fast and explosive - but there is a price he’s paying. Too much tension built up in those shoulders, if you slowed the camera down there is a delay before launch - like the coiling of a snake that gets bamboozled by a mongoose. Mayweather was fluid and relaxed like water, able to see Canelos punches coming before he even threw them. He didnt get hit with a single flush punch that entire fight.

if you look at Ali and Robinson, or Duran. Their shots come off very smooth and quick with no tell. Shots you don’t see coming.

I agree with almost everything you say though, outside of the mass building points.

[crimsonfalcon07]

No IâÂÂm not wrong.

it is just velocity x mass

acceleration plays a role, but at the end of the day no matter how you get to it - it comes down to velocity x mass of the forearm.

Acceleration can be a pretty tricky subject to get into. Because exploding so much in an attempt to gain velocity is not only energy consuming and not economical, but it also telegraphs the punch. Its like saying, hey look im fast and explosive! But ill tell you every time I am gonna punch. A perfect example is Floyd vs Canelo. Canelo looks fast and explosive - but there is a price heâÂÂs paying. Too much tension built up in those shoulders, if you slowed the camera down there is a delay before launch - like the coiling of a snake that gets bamboozled by a mongoose. Mayweather was fluid and relaxed like water, able to see Canelos punches coming before he even threw them. He didnt get hit with a single flush punch that entire fight.

if you look at Ali and Robinson, or Duran. Their shots come off very smooth and quick with no tell. Shots you donâÂÂt see coming.

I agree with almost everything you say though, outside of the mass building points.

That's literally basic physics. Force = Mass x Acceleration. Not velocity. Power is just force on target. Velocity times mass is momentum, which isn't directly relevant to power. That's why almost everything in this particular post is problematic.

Getting your acceleration right is everything. That's part of why Ali and Robinson, etc, were able to be quick without tell. The faster your acceleration is, the faster your punch builds speed (velocity) by definition. If you want your punch to get there as quickly as possible, it needs to go from zero velocity to the highest velocity you can manage as quickly as possible. That's what acceleration IS. The idea of acceleration in boxing is that your punch gets there before they have a chance to react.

Also, due to the fixed length of the arm, if your acceleration isn't fast, you won't be able to achieve as high velocity, but that's a byproduct and irrelevant to the force picture. Speed and mass is just momentum.

This isn't a matter of opinion. This is definitional stuff. Look it up if you don't believe it. But you really ought to know F=Ma without looking it up if you want to talk about power.

When it comes to the examples you gave, we get into kinetic chain. If you're tense at the shoulders, your kinetic chain stops there, and the force you've developed has to push the mass of your entire arm. If you're talking about the mass of the forearm, that means you're tense at the elbow and not turning the punch over. Maximizing the kinetic chain means you leverage acceleration from as many joints as possible, including the wrist. That relaxation means you don't have the antagonist muscles working against you in each of the joints, and you can maximize the acceleration of each contraction of the agonist muscle groups. Then you tense up at the moment of impact and structure comes into play.

You don't need to load up to maximize acceleration. That's actually the worst thing you can do. Truly being explosive isn't telegraphing. If there's telegraphing, it is because you're taking so long to accelerate up to speed that the opponent has time to react. That's the exact opposite of high acceleration. By definition, it's about getting to higher speeds as quickly as possible.

It almost sounds like you don't understand what acceleration even IS.

Momentum is primarily relevant to boxing in terms of defense, not power or offense. If you're going to preach about power, you need to have your basic physics correct, and you don't.

[YGriffith]

I gained a whole lot of power (like legit one punch power) now that i am 240 compared to when i was around 200-210.

[Willie Pep 229]

That's literally basic physics. Force = Mass x Acceleration. Not velocity. Power is just force on target. Velocity times mass is momentum, which isn't directly relevant to power. That's why almost everything in this particular post is problematic.

Getting your acceleration right is everything. That's part of why Ali and Robinson, etc, were able to be quick without tell. The faster your acceleration is, the faster your punch builds speed (velocity) by definition. If you want your punch to get there as quickly as possible, it needs to go from zero velocity to the highest velocity you can manage as quickly as possible. That's what acceleration IS. The idea of acceleration in boxing is that your punch gets there before they have a chance to react.

Also, due to the fixed length of the arm, if your acceleration isn't fast, you won't be able to achieve as high velocity, but that's a byproduct and irrelevant to the force picture. Speed and mass is just momentum.

This isn't a matter of opinion. This is definitional stuff. Look it up if you don't believe it. But you really ought to know F=Ma without looking it up if you want to talk about power.

When it comes to the examples you gave, we get into kinetic chain. If you're tense at the shoulders, your kinetic chain stops there, and the force you've developed has to push the mass of your entire arm. If you're talking about the mass of the forearm, that means you're tense at the elbow and not turning the punch over. Maximizing the kinetic chain means you leverage acceleration from as many joints as possible, including the wrist. That relaxation means you don't have the antagonist muscles working against you in each of the joints, and you can maximize the acceleration of each contraction of the agonist muscle groups. Then you tense up at the moment of impact and structure comes into play.

You don't need to load up to maximize acceleration. That's actually the worst thing you can do. Truly being explosive isn't telegraphing. If there's telegraphing, it is because you're taking so long to accelerate up to speed that the opponent has time to react. That's the exact opposite of high acceleration. By definition, it's about getting to higher speeds as quickly as possible.

It almost sounds like you don't understand what acceleration even IS.

Momentum is primarily relevant to boxing in terms of defense, not power or offense. If you're going to preach about power, you need to have your basic physics correct, and you don't.

Could you apply F = Mass x Acceleration to a meteor hitting the planet Earth.

I can't make the association because I have always (maybe incorrectly) assumed that an asteroid moving at great speed, slows (decelerates) as a meteor burning-up in the atmosphere.

But when they (TV Science level guys) talk about the impact a particular asteroid hitting us, the earth ending math always seems to be based on the asteroid's velocity to mass ratio. (So does my ignorance self think.)

Can you help?

[crimsonfalcon07]

Could you apply F = Mass x Acceleration to a meteor hitting the planet Earth.

I can't make the association because I have always (maybe incorrectly) assumed that an asteroid moving at great speed, slows (decelerates) as a meteor burning-up in the atmosphere.

But when they (TV Science level guys) talk about the impact a particular asteroid hitting us, the earth ending math always seems to be based on the asteroid's velocity to mass ratio. (So does my ignorance self think.)

Can you help?

Sure. Speed is relevant there because the acceleration comes from the asteroid going the speed it was traveling at the moment of impact to zero speed when it makes impact. So since acceleration is change in speed per time, it's a large change in speed divided by a very small fraction of time, which creates huge acceleration. Multiply that by the mass of the asteroid and you get huge force numbers. Think about a car crash. You can accelerate and decelerate from zero to various numbers without harm, but if you run into something, the speed goes to zero in an instant, which means your acceleration is correspondingly high.

In terms of boxing, what this means is that whatever force you attain by the time you make contact with the opponent is the upper limit of what you have to work with before you start to get structural losses from your position or glancing shots, etc. Ideally you make contact perpendicular to the surface of your opponent's body at the point of impact, and your structure doesn't absorb much of the force of impact.

The upper speed that you can accelerate to is limited by the shorter of the length of your arm and the distance to the opponent. You need to get to the highest speed you can when or before you reach that distance, which is why the acceleration is so critical. Lower acceleration means lower speeds at the top end over the same distance. It's basically the same as quarter mile speeds for cars. A car capable of higher acceleration will have higher speeds when they reach that distance. So speed is relevant in that sense, but it's dictated entirely by the acceleration, and that's what the boxer needs to focus on. The faster you get your mass in motion and the more of it you have behind the punch, the harder you'll be able to hit. Some people punch very fast, for instance, but they don't rotate and get their body involved, so it's just an arm punch, so it's very ineffective. Or they rotate but don't transfer weight, with similar negative effects.

Hope that makes sense.

[QueensburyRules]

No IâÂÂm not wrong.

it is just velocity x mass

acceleration plays a role, but at the end of the day no matter how you get to it - it comes down to velocity x mass of the forearm.

Acceleration can be a pretty tricky subject to get into. Because exploding so much in an attempt to gain velocity is not only energy consuming and not economical, but it also telegraphs the punch. Its like saying, hey look im fast and explosive! But ill tell you every time I am gonna punch. A perfect example is Floyd vs Canelo. Canelo looks fast and explosive - but there is a price heâÂÂs paying. Too much tension built up in those shoulders, if you slowed the camera down there is a delay before launch - like the coiling of a snake that gets bamboozled by a mongoose. Mayweather was fluid and relaxed like water, able to see Canelos punches coming before he even threw them. He didnt get hit with a single flush punch that entire fight.

if you look at Ali and Robinson, or Duran. Their shots come off very smooth and quick with no tell. Shots you donâÂÂt see coming.

I agree with almost everything you say though, outside of the mass building points.

- - Guaranteed Duran at 154 knocks out even more of his light and welter opposition...duh...you wrong again...!!!

[max baer]

Could you apply F = Mass x Acceleration to a meteor hitting the planet Earth.

I can't make the association because I have always (maybe incorrectly) assumed that an asteroid moving at great speed, slows (decelerates) as a meteor burning-up in the atmosphere.

But when they (TV Science level guys) talk about the impact a particular asteroid hitting us, the earth ending math always seems to be based on the asteroid's velocity to mass ratio. (So does my ignorance self think.)

Can you help?

are you neil degrasse tyson's son? you are very bright!!