George Foreman Is Overrated

[JAB5239]

Perfect example of the dialectic of opinion when a fighter's greatness is revisited. Ellis was probably better than most people realize, Frazier was not his best version when he fought Big George... although its a major assumption to use this as an excuse for his efforts. Frazier beat some excellent fighters and that is more than some great heavyweights did resume wise. And of course... the Ali trilogy!

Ellis was on a tear when Frazier beat him. As far as Frazier and George go...I've always chalked that up to being a terrible styles matchup for Joe. I don't think Frazier would have ever beaten Foreman because of the way each man fought.

[QueensburyRules]

That night (Holyfield I) he was an ATG - but does one night get you there?

That night there are only a few who could have beaten him, only a few.

- - Well, Big George could've whooped Big Dummy that night for sure and Vander in the rematch as well.

Instead he had to settle for whooping the guy who whooped and retired Vander.

[Ivich]

Neither Ward nor Gatti beat most of the top 10 of their division and than beat an opponent as good as Ali either.

No they didn't, but this was your post.
"the grit and determination he showed was the epitome of an all time great" Which implies that the criteria to be considered an ATG is "grit and determination!" Frazier beat about 40% of the top ten during his career, as I posted there were plenty he did not face,and, coincidentally perhaps, many of them were punchers.

[Ivich]

Perfect example of the dialectic of opinion when a fighter's greatness is revisited. Ellis was probably better than most people realize, Frazier was not his best version when he fought Big George... although its a major assumption to use this as an excuse for his efforts. Frazier beat some excellent fighters and that is more than some great heavyweights did resume wise. And of course... the Ali trilogy!

He also defended his "title",against 3 unranked journeymen. If Frazier wasn't in the best condition when he took on Foreman because he had been beating up on no hopers,while Ali was taking on ;
Ellis
Mathis
Blin
Foster
Chuvalo
Quarry
Lewis
Patterson
Foster B
In the same timescale window.


Whose fault was that?

[billeau2]

He also defended his "title",against 3 unranked journeymen. If Frazier wasn't in the best condition when he took on Foreman because he had been beating up on no hopers,while Ali was taking on ;
Ellis
Mathis
Blin
Foster
Chuvalo
Quarry
Lewis
Patterson
Foster B
In the same timescale window.


Whose fault was that?

Stated explicitly in the post that I was not using it as an excuse... Read the post carefully. Your point about defending his title? It applies a lot. People generally reason that when a fighter defends his title it always means something extraordinary compared to fighting other competition. I don't believe this at all... One should always consider the competition on a fight by fight basis and the general state of the division at the time. Just my two cents.

[JAB5239]

No they didn't, but this was your post.
"the grit and determination he showed was the epitome of an all time great" Which implies that the criteria to be considered an ATG is "grit and determination!" Frazier beat about 40% of the top ten during his career, as I posted there were plenty he did not face,and, coincidentally perhaps, many of them were punchers.

I clearly wrote "And his third fight with Ali......the grit and determination he showed was the epitome of an all time great, even in a losing effort." Leading up to the first Ali fight he beat Quarry, Bonavena and Ellis, who was at the top of his game and WBA champion. He then beat Ali who was still near prime and would go on to show his greatness. Besides Louis and Ali, you can look at almost every other champion and see they missed as many top ten fights as Frazier. Joe also showed immense heart against Foreman when he kept getting up and wanting to fight. So in my opinion, it wasn't just one fight that makes him an all time great, but a series of fights and the era he fought in.

[Ivich]

I clearly wrote "And his third fight with Ali......the grit and determination he showed was the epitome of an all time great, even in a losing effort." Leading up to the first Ali fight he beat Quarry, Bonavena and Ellis, who was at the top of his game and WBA champion. He then beat Ali who was still near prime and would go on to show his greatness. Besides Louis and Ali, you can look at almost every other champion and see they missed as many top ten fights as Frazier. Joe also showed immense heart against Foreman when he kept getting up and wanting to fight. So in my opinion, it wasn't just one fight that makes him an all time great, but a series of fights and the era he fought in.

I never disputed what you wrote.
Heart,like grit, and determination are wonderful attributes, but not enough to qualify for all time greatness.Each man must make his own list fpr greatness and I certainly have no criticism to offer to you. His defences against the forenamed 3 journeymen impact on his standing imo,but that's just my opinion.

[MikeyMike100]

Foreman is not overrated because no one has him near their top 5. So, he is rated where he should be the lower part of the top ten.

Ive seen people rate him top 5

[Anthony342]

Ive seen people rate him top 5

Well they're wrong. And you're also wrong to say he's over rated, as has already been pointed out here.

[StarshipTrooper]

Well they're wrong. And you're also wrong to say he's over rated, as has already been pointed out here.

I have Foreman 7th so that's not that far off