Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[Ivich]

Signing means nothing if you don't follow through. He could have had that fight made in Paris or elsewhere, instead of NY, where he knew the fight wasn't going to be made. Now, why did Jim Johnson deserve that title shot ahead of Jeannette, when Jeannette beat him twice in that year? You're excuses aren't cutting it.

He didn't follow through because the fights were pulled ,what part of that don't you understand? The only occasion Johnson was offered his asking price to fight in France was for a proposed match with Jeannette in I think1913 Johnson was out of shape but verbally agreed to fight Jeannette over 10rds for Theodore Vienne.Vienne insisted it be over 20 rds and Johnson passed on the idea.You have this mistaken belief that Boxers make matches,they don't promoters do Give me some examples of promoters meeting Johnson's asking price of $30,000 which he refused?Which promoters?Which countries? I've provided you with the only one and the reason why Johnson didnt accept it.
Do you think fighters fight fpr glory? They fight for £$£$£$. Boxing is a business and always has been.
Johnson was getting $30,000 to defend his title against the White Hopes promoters kept digging up, in some cases more, he got $31.500 for waltzing through a defence against Jim Flynn WTF would he defend against a much more dangerous challenger like a Langford or a Jeannette in a foreign land for a smaller purse and have to pay his own travel expenses to do so when he could get over his asking price for sleep walking through a fight with a White Hope?
If you want to blame some one for that, blame racist White America which had no interest in watching him defend against a black challenger in a fight in which. whoever prevailed the status quo would remain the same ie America would still be looking at a black man atop the Heavyweight Throne.

[GhostofDempsey]

He didn't follow through because the fights were pulled ,what part of that don't you understand? The only occasion Johnson was offered his asking price to fight in France was for a proposed match with Jeannette in I think1913 Johnson was out of shape but verbally agreed to fight Jeannette over 10rds for Theodore Vienne.Vienne insisted it be over 20 rds and Johnson passed on the idea.You have this mistaken belief that Boxers make matches,they don't promoters do Give me some examples of promoters meeting Johnson's asking price of $30,000 which he refused?Which promoters?Which countries? I've provided you with the only one and the reason why Johnson didnt accept it.
Do you think fighters fight fpr glory? They fight for £$£$£$. Boxing is a business and always has been.
Johnson was getting $30,000 to defend his title against the White Hopes promoters kept digging up, in some cases more, he got $31.500 for waltzing through a defence against Jim Flynn WTF would he defend against a much more dangerous challenger like a Langford or a Jeannette in a foreign land for a smaller purse and have to pay his own travel expenses to do so when he could get over his asking price for sleep walking through a fight with a White Hope?
If you want to blame some one for that, blame racist White America which had no interest in watching him defend against a black challenger in a fight in which. whoever prevailed the status quo would remain the same ie America would still be looking at a black man atop the Heavyweight Throne.

False, plenty of black fighters fought one another in America for lucrative paydays. Johnson chose Jim Johnson over Jeannette, because he was the easier fight. You keep trying to spin his drawing of the color line, but all three of those fighters I mentioned insist they weren't given legit title shots and they were denied their shot by Johnson. If he really wanted to fight them he would have, but each time negotiations came about, he moved the goal post. I don't fault him for fight some of the Great White No-Hopers for a decent payday, but I do fault him for drawing the color line as champion and never giving Langford his well deserved shot. Jeannette certainly did enough to deserve his shot when he beat Jim Johnson twice in the same year that Jack fought Johnson. You can make all the excuses you like, and continue to push your agenda, but up to now you've only regurgitated some lines in a Johnson bio you read. Yawn.

[Ivich]

False, plenty of black fighters fought one another in America for lucrative paydays. Johnson chose Jim Johnson over Jeannette, because he was the easier fight. You keep trying to spin his drawing of the color line, but all three of those fighters I mentioned insist they weren't given legit title shots and they were denied their shot by Johnson. If he really wanted to fight them he would have, but each time negotiations came about, he moved the goal post. I don't fault him for fight some of the Great White No-Hopers for a decent payday, but I do fault him for drawing the color line as champion and never giving Langford his well deserved shot. Jeannette certainly did enough to deserve his shot when he beat Jim Johnson twice in the same year that Jack fought Johnson. You can make all the excuses you like, and continue to push your agenda, but up to now you've only regurgitated some lines in a Johnson bio you read. Yawn.

Any black fighters fight each other for $30,000 in the early1900's? Please produce evidence that Langford and McVey said that? Third time of asking I think ?
If black fighters could earn big money fighting each other in the US?
Q1.Why didn't promoters meet Johnson's asking price of $30,00 for a defence and make themselves a nice profit on the fight?
Q2.Why didn't the leading promoters such as Rickard,Coffroth,Curley put on these matches?
Q3.Why did so many black fighters end up poor, having to eke out a living as spar mates for white boxers.
I'm referring specifically to guys like Panama Joe Gans,George Godfrey,Bob Armstrong,Denver Ed Martin, Bill Tate,Cocoa Kid? Q4. Langford and McVey fought each other multiple times,yet both died penniless where did all the money from their lucrative matches against each other go?

I've given you primary sources, you in return have produced Jack **** ,and you won't, we are both aware of that.The agenda is entirely yours and its one of hate.

[GhostofDempsey]

Any black fighters fight each other for $30,000 in the early1900's? Please produce evidence that Langford and McVey said that? Third time of asking I think ? I've given you primary sources you in return have produced Jack **** ,and you won't, we are both aware of that.The agenda is entirely yours and its one of hate.

French promoter Theodore Vienne says he offered Johnson $25,000 and then $30,000 to meet Langford in Paris. Johnson turned him down. Johnson's continual refusal to meet the best challengers led to the French Boxing Federation stripping him of the title (Winnipeg Tribune, 27th Dec 1913)

McIntosh made a series of offers to Johnson: $55,000 to fight Langford and McVey in Australia (NYT 9 Dec 1912); $30,000 for an unnamed opponent that the author presumes to be Langford (NYT 26th June 1912); $40,000 for Langford and McVey with $5000 expenses and a $10,000 forfeit (NYT 9th August 1912). Then there was a reported $100,000 to fight Langford and Jeannette in Australia and Flynn in Paris (NYT Oct 12 1912)

You haven't provided any sources, and until you do I won't be jumping over any hurdles to do the same. Johnson himself said he was the first black champion and that he'd be the only black champion. Similar arguments about black vs black were made for Louis, yet Walcott was one of his biggest purses. Jack knew who to avoid, he certainly never gave Gunboat Smith a shot at the title ever since Smith just about knocked him cold in an exhibition. Smith beat Moran and Willard before they got their shot at Johnson. So not only did Johnson avoid the best black fighters of his day, he avoided the best white ones too.

" When Johnson won the title he drew the color line against his own people " - Joe Jeannette

[travestyny]

" When Johnson won the title he drew the color line against his own people " - Joe Jeannette

I believe Jeannette said this. However, I also believe that no one is finding a primary source for this. I'm guessing you don't have one because you said something about not being willing to provide sources.

Contrast this statement with Johnson and Jeanette both agreeing to a fight in New York that was left to the sole mercy of the NY Commission. Again, Jeannette's side also worked on this deal and it was accepted. Signed by both guys. Forfeitures posted. So did Jack Johnson offer him a championship fight? The answer has to be yes. I don't know how you can argue no.


The McMahon brothers would even know more than Johnson whether the fight had a chance to come off, and obviously they did believe so. They obviously didn't see the commission pulling the fight.

[The Old LefHook]

Johnson knew whites would not put up with blacks "monopolizing," the title. He did not see it as his job to help blacks out. That is a job ******* whites will fight for.

[Willie Pep 229]

You're pretending that Dempsey wasn't there to sign for the fight with the Chicago people.

He was there. So how does your excuse now make any sense?


The check appeared precisely when the contract said it was to appear. PRECISELY.


So who is not telling the whole story?

I never said he didn't sign the contract. Of course he did.

He had to have signed it if he is found guilty of breaching it.

You're just trying to confuse the issue with irrelevant facts.

Too much lawyer in you T.

Come on get real about this - it is so obvious that Floyd Fitzsimmons was the one guiding Dempsey.

Floyd set up the contract for Dempsey to sign; Fitz bailed out the contract; Dempsey breaches the contract; Dempsey signs with Rickard; Fitz goes to work for Dempsey.

Dempsey had no one to guide him after Kearns so he hooked up with his old promoter Fitzsimmons who goes all the way back to the Miske fight in 1920.

Fitz was the advisor and it looks to me like he fleeced Chicago people.

[Willie Pep 229]

I forgot to address some things here.

As far as I see listed, the purse for the Tunney fight was $750,000.


Also, you say Dempsey chose to go with the people he knew. Well let's see you crawl out of this one. From the horse's mouth!



And we know that there was a promoter that got the signatures, right?

If you want to keep it up with the name calling, beware that I can give it right back....along with tons of information that is going to keep you wishing you bailed out of this conversation long ago.

None if that is relevant to how the deal with Chicago played out.

Yes Dempsey said he would fight Wills several times you can go all the way back to '22 and find several more newspaper articles saying the same thing.

Yes said he would go with any promoter who could get the job done.

Fitzsimmons stepped up and DEMPSEY SIGNED!

But then for some reason Fitz pulls out and Dempsey goes with him right to Rickard.

The whole California thing is the $1,200 that was part of the settlement the Chicago people received. Yes again he signed and yes again he breached the contract.Thst's not news.

Dempsey learned a hard lesson in Shelby Montana and once Fitz walked away from the Chicago contract Dempsey had no intention of staying with them. He went with those he knew, Fitz and Rickard.

Both proved they could promoter a big fight - the Chicago people were 'two in the bush,' much noise but no big fight resume.

I thought the Tunney guarantee was only for $680,000 not sure where you got the 750 number.

But when it was all said and done, gate%, radio and film revenues, Dempsey topped 800K.

[travestyny]

I never said he didn't sign the contract. Of course he did.

He had to have signed it if he is found guilty of breaching it.

You're just trying to confuse the issue with irrelevant facts.

Too much lawyer in you T.

Come on get real about this - it is so obvious that Floyd Fitzsimmons was the one guiding Dempsey.

Floyd set up the contract for Dempsey to sign; Fitz bailed out the contract; Dempsey breaches the contract; Dempsey signs with Rickard; Fitz goes to work for Dempsey.

Dempsey had no one to guide him after Kearns so he hooked up with his old promoter Fitzsimmons who goes all the way back to the Miske fight in 1920.

Fitz was the advisor and it looks to me like he fleeced Chicago people.

You talk about irrelevant facts, and then you try to blame everything on Fritz? You have blamed everyone and their mother for this fight not happening except Dempsey. You must realize that you are far too biased to have this conversation.

[travestyny]

None if that is relevant to how the deal with Chicago played out.

Yes Dempsey said he would fight Wills several times you can go all the way back to '22 and find several more newspaper articles saying the same thing.

Yes said he would go with any promoter who could get the job done.

Fitzsimmons stepped up and DEMPSEY SIGNED!

But then for some reason Fitz pulls out and Dempsey goes with him right to Rickard.

The whole California thing is the $1,200 that was part of the settlement the Chicago people received. Yes again he signed and yes again he breached the contract.Thst's not news.

Dempsey learned a hard lesson in Shelby Montana and once Fitz walked away from the Chicago contract Dempsey had no intention of staying with them. He went with those he knew, Fitz and Rickard.

Both proved they could promoter a big fight - the Chicago people were 'two in the bush,' much noise but no big fight resume.

I thought the Tunney guarantee was only for $680,000 not sure where you got the 750 number.

But when it was all said and done, gate%, radio and film revenues, Dempsey topped 800K.

So what you're saying is that when Dempsey said that whomever gets all the signatures will get the fight, he meant that whomever gets all the signatures will not get the fight.


That's it, right? Because I can't interpret that any other way.

When he said any promoter, he meant not any promoter.

When Rickard was seemingly on board for this fight, Dempsey again declined, which pissed off Rickard's people. That was the Montreal proposed fight, right? So what is the excuse you have for that one?


You make up excuse after excuse and none of them are worthy of anything, but you go with it because you are the biggest Dempsey stan ever and you can't accept that he was not infallible. He ducked Harry Wills and it's obvious to see. Claiming that the Chicago people couldn't promote that fight. Really? A child could have promoted that fight.


I got the number from Boxrec. They put it as $750,000. The Guarantee for Wills was $800,000, plus the opportunity to make above that. Do we know what was Dempsey's final pick up for Tunney?