Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[GhostofDempsey]

It cant be a duck when Johnson signed to defend against Jeannette twice,it's that obvious and that simple. NB Jeannette lost to Langford the day before Johnson beat Jim Johnson. Now that I've blown your Cotton argument out of the water you want to drop it? Okay. Just keep in mind Jim Johnson's resume ****s all over Cotton's!
In1913 Jeannette lost to debutee Jack Thompson and Langford,he beat Jim Johnson on a foul the other bout between them was a No Dec.

Signing means nothing if you don't follow through. He could have had that fight made in Paris or elsewhere, instead of NY, where he knew the fight wasn't going to be made. Now, why did Jim Johnson deserve that title shot ahead of Jeannette, when Jeannette beat him twice in that year? You're excuses aren't cutting it.

[travestyny]

First you chose the best fights to get to the title shot (for Dempsey fighting blacks fighters doesn't help get him there.) and then the best fight for the best money once Champion.

That's the pointttt. The public wanted Wills and the Wills contract was worth more than the Tunney contract.


The Wills fight fits your mold to a T. You have to admit that.

[Willie Pep 229]

That's the pointttt. The public wanted Wills and the Wills contract was worth more than the Tunney contract.


The Wills fight fits your mold to a T. You have to admit that.

We been through this too many times - Dempsey signed when Fitzsimmons was at the wheel steering the event - the money at first isn't there and Fitzsimmons then sells the contract to the Chicago people.

Dempsey then publicly breaches the contract and Floyd mysteriously appears in Dempsey's camp as a spokes person.

In short Dempsey went with the people he knew and trusted Fitzsimmons and Rickard and in the end made as much or more than the Chicago people offered- Rickard took him OVER the 800K mark.

Plus that check you like to show us doesn't appear until after Drmpsey breaches the contract and is already signed for Tunney.

You are once again cherry picking facts trying to force an incorrect extrapolation from the reader.

Tell the whole story Mr. Fox News.

[travestyny]

We been through this too many times - Dempsey signed when Fitzsimmons was at the wheel steering the event - the money at first isn't there and Fitzsimmons then sells the contract to the Chicago people.

Dempsey then publicly breaches the contract and Floyd mysteriously appears in Dempsey's camp as a spokes person.

In short Dempsey went with the people he knew and trusted Fitzsimmons and Rickard and in the end made as much or more than the Chicago people offered- Rickard took him OVER the 800K mark.

Plus that check you like to show us doesn't appear until after Drmpsey breaches the contract and is already signed for Tunney.

You are once again cherry picking facts trying to force an incorrect extrapolation from the reader.

Tell the whole story Mr. Fox News.

You're pretending that Dempsey wasn't there to sign for the fight with the Chicago people.

He was there. So how does your excuse now make any sense?


The check appeared precisely when the contract said it was to appear. PRECISELY.


So who is not telling the whole story?

[travestyny]

Signing means nothing if you don't follow through. He could have had that fight made in Paris or elsewhere, instead of NY, where he knew the fight wasn't going to be made. Now, why did Jim Johnson deserve that title shot ahead of Jeannette, when Jeannette beat him twice in that year? You're excuses aren't cutting it.

How did he not follow through in New York. You are just pulling out of thin air that he magically knew the fight couldn't get made there. You think the promoters and Joe Jeannette's team did all the work to put together the fight for nothing to happen? It makes no sense.


The Jim Johnson fight was a money grab before the Moran fight. He was already signed to fight Moran for a good payday and he had a chance to grab a bit more with a rumble with Johnson. Problem was he broke his arm in the process. The Moran fight was originally scheduled for December, and I think pushed to the second week of January. Two to three weeks from the Jim Johnson fight.

If it would have been Jeannette or one of the other big Black fighters of the time, he would have had to get his price, and there damn sure is no way in hell that he's fighting Langford or Jeannette and then Moran weeks later.

[travestyny]

We been through this too many times - Dempsey signed when Fitzsimmons was at the wheel steering the event - the money at first isn't there and Fitzsimmons then sells the contract to the Chicago people.

Dempsey then publicly breaches the contract and Floyd mysteriously appears in Dempsey's camp as a spokes person.

In short Dempsey went with the people he knew and trusted Fitzsimmons and Rickard and in the end made as much or more than the Chicago people offered- Rickard took him OVER the 800K mark.

Plus that check you like to show us doesn't appear until after Drmpsey breaches the contract and is already signed for Tunney.

You are once again cherry picking facts trying to force an incorrect extrapolation from the reader.

Tell the whole story Mr. Fox News.

I forgot to address some things here.

As far as I see listed, the purse for the Tunney fight was $750,000.


Also, you say Dempsey chose to go with the people he knew. Well let's see you crawl out of this one. From the horse's mouth!

"The match is open to ANY PROMOTER who can handle the arrangements and who can bring Wills and myself together in the ring. If Tex Rickard or ANY OTHER RESPONSIBLE PROMOTER CAN GET THE NECESSARY SIGNATURES FIRST THEN HE WILL LAND THE BOUT

And we know that there was a promoter that got the signatures, right?

If you want to keep it up with the name calling, beware that I can give it right back....along with tons of information that is going to keep you wishing you bailed out of this conversation long ago.

[GhostofDempsey]

How did he not follow through in New York. You are just pulling out of thin air that he magically knew the fight couldn't get made there. You think the promoters and Joe Jeannette's team did all the work to put together the fight for nothing to happen? It makes no sense.


The Jim Johnson fight was a money grab before the Moran fight. He was already signed to fight Moran for a good payday and he had a chance to grab a bit more with a rumble with Johnson. Problem was he broke his arm in the process. The Moran fight was originally scheduled for December, and I think pushed to the second week of January. Two to three weeks from the Jim Johnson fight.

If it would have been Jeannette or one of the other big Black fighters of the time, he would have had to get his price, and there damn sure is no way in hell that he's fighting Langford or Jeannette and then Moran weeks later.

Yawn, more of your repeated speculation. Like I said, follow me like a puppy dog. You haven't posted on this forum for weeks or months until I said something about Johnson on a thread. Suddenly here you are, what a coincidence.

How was Jim Johnson a money grab and not a cherry pick? Like I said, Jeannette beat Jim Johnson twice that same year, and Jack chose Jim over Jeannette. Johnson knew the rules in NY, and went along with whatever they proposed, knowing full well that fight could not have been made. If he had any serious intention of fighting Jeannette, McVey or Langford, he would have, but every time talks came up he moved the goal post. Agreed to fight Langford prior to winning the title from Burns, then backs out demanding more money--he knew damn well he was going to beat Burns before he fought him, that was a ruse. Onto Australia where he agrees to terms and then suddenly demands a $15K forfeit deposited in an American bank. Chooses Jim Johnson over Jeannette. See the pattern here?

[travestyny]

Yawn, more of your repeated speculation. Like I said, follow me like a puppy dog. You haven't posted on this forum for weeks or months until I said something about Johnson on a thread. Suddenly here you are, what a coincidence.

Speculation? Following you? What are you even talking about. YOU DON'T OWN THE HISTORY SECTION. I have as much of a right to be here as you do. I read here in the history section all the time. It doesn't mean I have to post every time I read here. What the actual fvvck does this have to do with the topic of discussion.

I wish you could stop worrying about me so much and worry about formulating some arguments that actually make sense and are backed up by something. It took all of zero seconds for the new guy who is kicking you around to find out that you're a hater and a troll. Your arguments are terrible.

How was Jim Johnson a money grab and not a cherry pick? Like I said, Jeannette beat Jim Johnson twice that same year, and Jack chose Jim over Jeannette. Johnson knew the rules in NY, and went along with whatever they proposed, knowing full well that fight could not have been made. If he had any serious intention of fighting Jeannette, McVey or Langford, he would have, but every time talks came up he moved the goal post. Agreed to fight Langford prior to winning the title from Burns, then backs out demanding more money--he knew damn well he was going to beat Burns before he fought him, that was a ruse. Onto Australia where he agrees to terms and then suddenly demands a $15K forfeit deposited in an American bank. Chooses Jim Johnson over Jeannette. See the pattern here?

You can call it a cherry pick or a money grab. However you want to term it. That's what it was. It was made for the same month that he was supposed to be fighting Moran, and I think the Moran fight was pushed off a few weeks for that reason.

The point is that promoters still have to make an adequate offer. He was booked to fight Moran for his sum, and he decided he could pick up some extra money with Jim Johnson. Had the promoters got to Johnson before he signed for Moran and secured Jeannette, it would have likely been Jeannette being that when offered his sum, Johnson agreed to fight him.

None of what you are bringing up was the issue with the fights not happening. As already explained, he agreed to fight Langford 3 times. All three times the fight was pulled due to no fault of his own. He also agreed to fight Jeannette and it was pulled due to no fault of his own. This is all documented fact.


You still can't even admit that he agreed to fight Joe Jeannette in New York for the title, so why should anyone believe what you say on this topic? All of your "proof" is based solely on your opinion of Jack Johnson's character.

[GhostofDempsey]

Speculation? Following you? What are you even talking about. YOU DON'T OWN THE HISTORY SECTION. I have as much of a right to be here as you do. I read here in the history section all the time. It doesn't mean I have to post every time I read here. What the actual fvvck does this have to do with the topic of discussion.

I wish you could stop worrying about me so much and worry about formulating some arguments that actually make sense and are backed up by something. It took all of zero seconds for the new guy who is kicking you around to find out that you're a hater and a troll. Your arguments are terrible.





You can call it a cherry pick or a money grab. However you want to term it. That's what it was. It was made for the same month that he was supposed to be fighting Moran, and I think the Moran fight was pushed off a few weeks for that reason.

The point is that promoters still have to make an adequate offer. He was booked to fight Moran for his sum, and he decided he could pick up some extra money with Jim Johnson. Had the promoters got to Johnson before he signed for Moran and secured Jeannette, it would have likely been Jeannette being that when offered his sum, Johnson agreed to fight him.

None of what you are bringing up was the issue with the fights not happening. As already explained, he agreed to fight Langford 3 times. All three times the fight was pulled due to no fault of his own. He also agreed to fight Jeannette and it was pulled due to no fault of his own. This is all documented fact.


You still can't even admit that he agreed to fight Joe Jeannette in New York for the title, so why should anyone believe what you say on this topic? All of your "proof" is based solely on your opinion of Jack Johnson's character.

You sure do have a right to be here, but you hadn't been here in quite some time, but as soon as I post on a Johnson thread you came running! LOL

History books show that Johnson never gave any of the three top black fighters a title shot while champion. You can post your snippets, and make all the assumptions you like, but all three of them insisted he never gave them there shot. You seem to think you know more about what happened back then than they did, and double down on that by calling all three of them liars. Because we all know that Jack Johnson was the beacon of truth and honesty huh? And I'm sure the press was not at all corrupt or prone to bribes and payoffs when promoters or managers wanted to put a spin on a story.

Why should I admit he agreed to fight Jeannette when he knew the rule that was in place when he allegedly agreed to fight him in NY? I notice you don't give Dempsey the same benefit of the doubt when it comes to promoters making adequate offers and coming through with agreed upon sums, and you still like to float that silly claim that Dempsey ran from Jeannette, when that was clearly an exhibition to fight another fighter. You hold Dempsey to a higher standard than anyone else. Imagine if Mayweather were in the ring to fight one of his hand selected Youtubers for an exhibition and suddenly Thurman or Porter comes walking into the ring looking for a real fight. You think Floyd would or should fight them instead?

[travestyny]

You sure do have a right to be here, but you hadn't been here in quite some time, but as soon as I post on a Johnson thread you came running! LOL

You can get over yourself anytime now. I didn't come here because of you. I think it was just the other day I had a short convo with Billeau here. You need to stop with trying to make me your SunSpace. I'm here to talk boxing. All you and Pep do is attack people instead of working on defending your positions.

History books show that Johnson never gave any of the three top black fighters a title shot while champion. You can post your snippets, and make all the assumptions you like, but all three of them insisted he never gave them there shot. You seem to think you know more about what happened back then than they did, and double down on that by calling all three of them liars. Because we all know that Jack Johnson was the beacon of truth and honesty huh? And I'm sure the press was not at all corrupt or prone to bribes and payoffs when promoters or managers wanted to put a spin on a story.

Why should I admit he agreed to fight Jeannette when he knew the rule that was in place when he allegedly agreed to fight him in NY? I notice you don't give Dempsey the same benefit of the doubt when it comes to promoters making adequate offers and coming through with agreed upon sums, and you still like to float that silly claim that Dempsey ran from Jeannette, when that was clearly an exhibition to fight another fighter. You hold Dempsey to a higher standard than anyone else. Imagine if Mayweather were in the ring to fight one of his hand selected Youtubers for an exhibition and suddenly Thurman or Porter comes walking into the ring looking for a real fight. You think Floyd would or should fight them instead?

Ilvan (was that his name) had a good question. What are the sources for the quotations that they each gave regarding Johnson? McVey was close to him throughout and they sparred together before the Willard match. I've seen Jeannette's statement about Johnson drawing the color line but never from a primary source, but from 2006 or something like that with nothing linking to the original source. If you have all of this information, why don't you post it like Ilvan asked you to do.

I don't have any bias here. I'm already on record saying that Johnson ducked Langford when that was the information I had. When I did my own research, I found that it wasn't true. This is documented here, so that shows I'm completely willing to change my mind when I get all of the facts.

I call a liar a liar. Jack Johnson saying he took a dive. Liar. Jeannette claiming Johnson drew the color line. Liar. It's about PROOF. First, it's factually false since he fought Jim Johnson. Second, Jeannette is well aware that it was signed and sealed for them to have their fight in New York. This can be proven as FACT.


I don't know how this got turned into Mayweather, but YES! If Mayweather said that he would fight ANY fighter that the promoter chooses, then Thurman jumps out, and he says nah. Floyd deserves criticism. Espeically if he then says he'll fight any two men in the place, but not Thurman. How does that sound to you? Wouldn't YOU blame Floyd if he said he would fight ANY TWO men, but not Thurman? What do you think?


And let me remind you that it's not only me that feels this way. He was booed by the entire Madison Square Garden. For what it's worth, I think it was a dirty trick and I think he should have declined. BUT, he apparently was the one who made it about race and claimed he would fight ANY man just days out, if memory serves me correctly, and then ANY TWO WHITE men during the dust up, and once he goes there, for me, that says he could have taken that fight and he just declined for no good reason other than the reason he gave. He didn't want to fight a Black guy. Also keeping in mind Jeannette was 120 years old at this time.


Edit: Ivich, not Ilvan.